Very New light on roman tents construction

[Caballo]

Same here- but using my leather shield cover on one end with the shield at the other. Very effective. This one from the Hadrians Wall walk 2009 http://www.comitatus.net/galleryhadrianswall9.html.

[Paul Elliott]

Hey, that's really small! Mine is a bit more roomy, more in line with the Vienna Genesis painting, but even I think its a squeeze with all my equipment!

Picture from Rockingham Castle, maybe 2006?

[Vincula]

Some more evidence that guy ropes were used. From De Munitionibus Castrorum possibly by Hyginus (article in JRMES vol 4, 1993).

tks but some one already mentioned this on page 1

[Robert Vermaat]

Hey, that's really small! Mine is a bit more roomy, more in line with the Vienna Genesis painting, but even I think its a squeeze with all my equipment!

Ours are a bit lower, but still roomy.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I prefer not to use my cloak to cover theentrance, as they are far more useful for sleeping under. You also keep them dry... Shields, spare canvas etc other peoples cloaks.... :mrgreen:

[John Conyard]

Thank you Tim for your tent mosaic from Tunisia. New to me.

I fear this is well known.

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Even wargames companies are copying our late Roman tents.

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A simple ridge design from the early medieval Leiden Prudentius Psychomachia.

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And we can see similar tents in the Tente accounting books from Sienna 1479.
[attachment=1949]TenteaccountingbooksfromSienaItalySiena1479.jpg[/attachment]

And of course there are similar military "dog tents" throughout history.

[attachment=1950]tent12.jpg[/attachment]

I suspect a simple rectangular leather, felt or canvas shelter, of varying sizes, pitched in regular "streets" or by mess groups, would be the common soldiers shelter through history.

Here are some more Comitatus versions in various sizes, when the sun was not shining.

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[Caballo]

I was lucky enough to be able to look at a facsimile copy of the sixth century Vienna Genesis yesterday in the library as well as a copy of the Ambrosian Iliad.



The colours of the tents above are brown next to the opening, light green in the middle and dark green at the rear of the tent. the impression is of simple, homespun wool/ felted wool.
There is a second illustration of tents in the book- identical construction. These also show someone working in front of the tent, exactly as reenactors do. Same colour scheme.

These give the impression of a low status, hastily rigged tent- and is both very useful and unusual in that respect.

In the Ambriosian Iliad- where there were a LOT of pics that were new to me- the up market "traditional Roman" house shaped tents were all red/ pink- possibly linen?

[Robert Vermaat]

The colours of the tents above are brown next to the opening, light green in the middle and dark green at the rear of the tent. the impression is of simple, homespun wool/ felted wool.

Thanks Paul! Could you post any pictures or did you only get a look at it?

Those colours - could it be that the artist meant to show cloacks?

[John Conyard]

I should add that we discussed this this morning and felt the colours were true and had not faded or oxidised to any degree. The artist had a good palette of colours to work from and was not limited in any way.

Large heavy felted cloaks, often wool and goat hair, could make be made into tent shelters.In some ageogrpahic areas such cloaks may be mulit-coloured. But I would suggest that here we are just looking at simple everyday tents, the multi-colour approach being reminiscent of stripped awnings. But perhaps not leather.......

[Caballo]

Caballo wrote:
The colours of the tents above are brown next to the opening, light green in the middle and dark green at the rear of the tent. the impression is of simple, homespun wool/ felted wool.
Thanks Paul! Could you post any pictures or did you only get a look at it?

Those colours - could it be that the artist meant to show cloacks?

Thanks Robert - and I spent a good 45 minutes scanning the pictures in. Sadly, they haven't arrived in my university email, so it looks as if the technology defeated me...this time! But I shall return....

Additional pictures in the Vienna Genesis ( dated c 6th century) show-
- Soldiers armed with spear and shield attending a king and queen.
- High ranking officials in White tunic, cloaks with geometric declaration and gold shoulder brooch
- Hunters, servants - most bare legged with leg wraps in red, blue, brown and off White, tunics and cloaks
- Women, all with heads covered
- King/ Queen in court attire

The Ambrosian Iliad showed a number of pictures that were new to me, including the sacrifice of a bull by high ranking officers with the army drawn up begins them, a " shield wall," an unusual crested helmet, and what looks to me like a triple line shield defensive formation- however, this latter is a side view of a small number of soldiers and may simply be four soldiers in a defensive pose.

I promise I will post when I successfully get the pics!!

[Paul Elliott]

Even wargames companies are copying our late Roman tents.

[attachment=1947]vienna-genesis-tent.jpg[/attachment]

I should add here that Medicus Matt sent me that Vienna Genesis scan, but that it was I that turned it into a working Late Roman soldier's shelter..in 2005 Now they're everywhere! I really should have copyrighted my design :roll: mile:

[John Conyard]

Paul B., I have this image of you in the Bodleian as a sort of late Roman James Bond/Johny English character ferreting out the hidden files from a dark basement, using your mobile to keep up updated. Anyway, keep up the good work, a very positive development.

Looking backwards I well remember Paul E. proudly bringing his tent to its first Comitatus event back in 2005. A cheap design with mass appeal, we issue them to most new members. I remember dog tents as we used to call them being a main stay of Sealed Knot campsites back in the 1980’s, but I suspect the first person to popularise them in our period was a German re-enactor back in the 1980’s. I fear I cannot recall the gentlemans’ name, and it was before the common use of the internet but his design and its history was up on

http://www.ask-vikingekampgruppe.dk/uk0013.html

The group and its website have undergone many changes and I cannot access the old page. But I do have a copy of the design.

[attachment=1979]Deurnetent.gif[/attachment]

It was as ever based on canvas over three sticks, but with the possibility of building up larger designs using tents as panels, as with the Deurne tent. His design still holds many possibilities in terms of combining tents, but in effect the idea of joining dog tents dates back to the 19th century and beyond. This particular design always reminded me of a WWII design. But I never trusted all those joints not to let the rain or wind in. I suspect it is easier to place them one in front of the other as potentially shown here.

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Getting back to the iconography, it is great to see the actual colours and we can use supposition to arrive at a best guess as to what we are looking at. But before I get too excited I must acknowledge that the colours used to depict the tents add to our evidence but sadly prove nothing conclusively.

[garrelt]

Going trough "The Roman Army of the Principate 27 BC-AD 117" Bat037 in the Engineering
section page 50 to 57
Marching and practice camps • Forts and fortresses • Siegeworks.

I came across this:
"Within a marching camp the tent-lines were deliberately laid out, each line
in its customary space so that every unit knew exactly where to pitch its tents
and each man knew his place. Each tent (papilio) measured, exclusive of guy-
ropes, 10 Roman feet (2.96m) square and housed eight men (contubernium) and
their equipment (Hyginus 1, cf. Vegetius 2.13). They were made of best quality
cattle hide or goatskin with access back and front and enough headroom inside
to enable a man to stand up. Made of at least 25 shaped panels, which were
sewn together, they could be rolled up into a long sausage-shape and in this
form were carried by mule. This shape may have given rise to the nickname
papilio ('butterfly') as it rolled up like a grub and with its wings probably
reminded the soldiers of the insect emerging from the chrysalis. The length of
a centurion's tent was twice that of a papilio, while those of tribunes and above
was taller, box-like structures paved with cut turf."

If you look at tent size (2.96 square meters) the question arises : how will you fit 8 people with equipment in a tent with such a small "footprint".
Or is this the space needed for 1 soldier with all his material?
I have noticed that 3 square meters is the minimum of space in a tent a modern person needs when on events with his replica material.

It will even be hard to fit 8 fully equipped men in a tent which is 2,96 by 2,96 meters.
6 could be max, which leaves 2 on guard duty.

[Marcus Velius Avitus]

You are a soldier in The Emperor's Legion, You aren't supposed to be comfortable! LOL Just like today's army, shelter accommodations are designed to be "barely adequate" rather than spacious and comfortable :grin:

You could squeeze 8 grunts in there, it would be a tight fit, but hey, see above.

[Evert]

I remember dog tents as we used to call them being a main stay of Sealed Knot campsites back in the 1980’s, but I suspect the first person to popularise them in our period was a German re-enactor back in the 1980’s. I fear I cannot recall the gentlemans’ name

It's Alban Depper.