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Roman Military Tents Carried in sections by the Men
#1
Ok, This may have already been suggested before but I'd like to hear your opinions on this thought. It strikes me strange that a roman soldier always had to wait for his tent to arrive on a cart for him and his other 7 members of his squad to erect, it also strikes me that a roman soldier never carried anything that could not be used for the construction of a marching camp or to defend himself. We as reenactors are constantly loading ourselves down with pots, cloaks, tools etc to illustrate what a Roman soldier may have carried on campaign, however if his tent was on a cart, why the hell would he be carrying tools for, surely these would be on a cart or pack mule / horse also.

What I'm suggesting is this, the pack that we all so carefully make as depicted on Trajan's column, is not a pack, but a sectionalised piece of a tent, folded and hung on the rings that would be used for attaching guys to.

The poles that we carry them on were used for the centre poles and uprights, the shields were used as a the walls on the sides of the tent to support the roof which was buttoned or tied together like a shelter half to form the roof. This would still provide adequate falls from the apex to the side walls to allow run off and give the men good shelter, three pieces per side for the roof, with two sections for one end. After all the early shelter halves in ww2 were open ended, perhaps the legionaries joined two tents together to form a whole.

I've done some sketches and the dimensions work great, try it your self.

Now this also does some thing else, regardless of how many men are together they would be able to construct some sort of shelter with what they have with them, making them self sufficient, even on their own on over night stops as individuals they would have adequate shelter.

Everything he carried would therefore be of use, he would be able to set up camp quickly and take it down quickly and be on the move, not having to wait to load carts before they left camp.

Just a thought mind, based on no historical evidence, but a load of logic, good ideas always have a habit of repeating themselves, in world war 2 infantrymen carried the shelter halves 1 pole and 6 pegs, the Germans the zeltbarn 3 sections , 3 men. the reason they used these because it was practical....With the Romans being the progressive people that they were it is logical that they came up with this sort of tent.

Your thoughts please
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#2
There are several things that would make me disagree with this theory. The soldiers' packs (loculus) as shown in the sculptures clearly depict the stitched reinforcing "bands" or strips which are on the body of the pack, and if I am not terribly mistaken, remnants of such packs with these attributes have been found. Also, if these were not packs, what would a soldier carry his marching kit in (like eating utensils, extra clothing, etc.)? It just wouldn't make as much sense. Also, every tent depiction or reconstruction I have ever seen does not appear to be made in seperate pieces as suggested. I believe the leather tents were made of many panels of leather, yes, but they were all stitched together into one tent, not made to come apart and be carried piece by piece. There were usually several soldiers in one tent, called a contubernium, so such a tent would have to have been larger than a modern shelter half, which is carried in two pieces.
No, I believe that their packs as depicted are indeed what they appear to be, marching packs. :wink:
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
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#3
Somebody else chime in, but it may also have been due to the need to keep the "tail" of the legion short. A limited amount of carts would have meant guys carrying more of their personal gear. one piece tents are huge and I thought I read somewhere that most legions tried to keep the number of carts to one per century, so just packing on the tents would have loaded them down.

Cooking utensils would have been personal gear, and most likely split up so each guy in the squad carried something inportant like the communal pot or this or that. This way if they lost the cart they could still drive on. All these little practicalities would have been honed over centuries of campaigning, where the first and formost rule of combat is that stuff happens and be prepared for anything.

"in world war 2 infantrymen carried the shelter halves 1 pole and 6 pegs, the Germans the zeltbarn 3 sections , 3 men. the reason they used these because it was practical"

Except that on operations few soldiers from any army (that has an interest in survival that is), while in combat areas, pitched pup tents. It's just not done except in the movies. The shelter halfs would have been good ground cloths or something extra to wrap yoruself in while you slept on the ground at the bottom of your hole.

Likewise a Roman legionary would have used his cloak for similar purposes if he didn't have his tent. This is the lot of soldiers for time immemorial.

Los
Los

aka Carlos Lourenco
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#4
Quote: "in world war 2 infantrymen carried the shelter halves 1 pole and 6 pegs, the Germans the zeltbarn 3 sections , 3 men. the reason they used these because it was practical"
Los
[size=150:3i68uvtz]G[/size]erman soldiers were even less burdoned than that, their Zelt was made up of FOUR triangular sections ([size=75:3i68uvtz]the Zeltbahn, a combo shelter/poncho[/size]) and although, people think they slept 4 in one of those, that's wrong... the fourth guy was supposed to be on watch. And... having slept THREE in one, I can tell you, it's DAMNED tight w/ those three -- whatever you do, don't do it right after eating cabbage or something ;-Þ
Best, DMV
DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS
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Legio IX Hispana www.legioix.org

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#5
Carvings are what they are and unless you can pick up the stitching on the statues which I would be very suprised, besides the tent seams stitched properly would have looked very similar to reinfocing because thats exactly what they are.

Modern reconstructions and depictions are exactly that, until someone finds a whole tent with a legionary underneath it, i doubt exactly how they were constructed will ever be known unless we find a roman somewhere frozen we can thaw out. Your right they have found parts of what is possible a roman military tent, but there is some conjecture that these were parts of some horse livery and if not, there was not conclusive proof that they were actually from a military tent.

I know there were eight men to a tent, thats recorded and thats what i actually said so i'm sorry if i was misunderstood. however if the tent was carried in the fashion i surgested there would be sufficient componets to make up a tent as i surgested.

Sorry about the Zeltbarn, i'm used to shooting at German reenactors and do not pretend to know the ins and outs of their construction. However, i was just tring to make a point that both armies, carried a tent that was split between two or more soldiers. I carried a shelter half myself and slept in the poxy thing more time then I want to remember at events, when we do 48 drops though, never slept in them, your right, but they kept you dry when nothing else would, for a while that is any way.

With regard to marching kit, how do we know that had one, i mean really does it say they did? i don't know. I thought most off the stuff which has been recreated comes from Trajans column or is based on finds. If they did, why not wrap it up in there cloak, ot tie it as many reenactors to the pole thingy!! No i don't know all the roman words, well any really, I just like to make observations and see what comes back.

Don't get me wrong i have the upmost respect for you guys, but I thought I would apply a little logic to a question that has perplexed me and see what other peoples thoughts were on my surgestion. I still might try to set one up, even in scale form to see what it looks like.

These are only thoughts, but what if I was right? certainly make authentic roman camping amuch more viable project .

Regards Kormanus(uk)
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#6
Kormanus, you didn't address the point of having a small baggage supply though, as brought up in Los's post. An army in a state of war can't afford to have a slow, long line of supplies strung out behind it. That's why the called them "Marius's Mules". They humped all their kit on their backs.

From this website: [url:2s40q6qc]http://faculty.vassar.edu/jolott/old_courses/republic1998/marius/reform.htm[/url]

Transport of all necessary equipment by soldiers:

Instead of carrying equipment on carts and mules, which slowed the army down to the pace of the baggage train, Marius made his men carry their supplies. A soldiers gear, aside from the armor they wore and the weapons they carried, also included emergency rations as well as entrenching and cooking tools. Josephus contends that a regular soldier would have to carry their weapons, a saw, a wicker basket for shifting earth, a piece of rope or leather, a sickle, and a pickax with a cutting blade on one side and a tine on the other for digging or cutting. The items they couldn't carry on their person would be attached onto a large pole, or pila muralia. Marius supposedly introduced the fork on the head of the pole for facilitated packing up and carrying of equipment. Plutarch writes in Marius' biography that the soldiers were nicknamed Marius' Mules, laden down with the baggage of the army. This epithet and the accompanying image would characterize the Roman Army throughout the time of the Empire.


So there you have it...no reference to a tent, but the only way to carry all of their food and such is a marching satchel. A bundled up cloak is useless if you have to put it on if it's cold or raining, and they likely had leather in a fair abundance.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#7
You know I find all of these practicalities absolutely enthralling. I always interested in the common man, the average guy, the regular state of affairs - not ballistas or galleys or artillery or aircraft carriers ... always the life for the lowliest grunt, the commonest denominator.

And what the legionnary carried on the march is basically it. His life between barracks. What was it like? Lighting fires? Cooking? Watches? Patrolling? Foraging? Rain? High altitude marches?

I participated in my own bit of research with follow Late Romans ([url:3q9fiemv]http://www.geocities.com/zozergames/roman3.html[/url]), but I want to know alot more.

Keep the discussion going!
~ Paul Elliott

The Last Legionary
This book details the lives of Late Roman legionaries garrisoned in Britain in 400AD. It covers everything from battle to rations, camp duties to clothing.
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#8
Raymond Selkirk thinks that the whole reliance on Carts is overrated. he suggests that most heavy baggage was carried by shallow boats, and that most Roman forts, marches and roads wwere near or along waterways, shallow or deep.

http://www.brigantesnation.com/SiteRese ... bridge.htm

discusses this theory in one geographic area, but it may well apply to most of Europe. The book is called "On the Trail of the Legions" ISBN 1-897874-08-1
Caius Fabius Maior
Charles Foxtrot
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#9
The Junkelmann Trans Alpine, Verona to Augsburg marching experiment well proved that a conturburnia of 8 milites could carry all of their kit with just one mule and their own backs. Roman tents have been found, albeit incomplete, but enough there to establish that there is nothing about them to suggest that they were composite affairs of several pieces divided among the contuburnium. A bag from Hod Hill is very similar to the satchel packs seen on Trajan's Column and is probably one. We must assume that Trajan's Column is somewhat stylized, and things like individual turf cutters and dolabras omitted, but possibly lashed to the kit pole. Each Century must have had at least one wagon however to carry the scorpion bolt shooter, and this wagon possibly also carried extra pioneer tools, millstones, etc, tough een the millstones could be carried by the mule, one piece on each side.

The shortening of the traditional Republican scutum may have been a direct result of the reforms of Marius, for the full sized scutum is quite fatiguing, and difficult to carry over rough terrain.

Dan
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#10
I seem to remember seeing sculpture of soldiers carrying their packs (may have been Trajan's Column) utilising forked sticks (Furca). Surely these forked sticks could not be used in the way that has been suggested for the upright on the sides of the tent?

Regards,
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#11
Cool, this is tsrating quite a bit of a debate and in turn, rpovidng me with allot of information about a roman soldier on the march and how the ecampments were established.

Thanks for all the input, but i'm still infighting mood. Dan when you refer to partial tents being found, what sort of size peices are we talking about, the whole tent less a few sections or just a small part of a section of a tent. Was there associated eveidence with these parts of tents that proved they were in fact part of a tent, like guys (if used) pegs etc. The pictures of parts of tents i've seen are very small, hence it would be diifcult to assume how the rest of the tent was constructed.

I know you state that their is no evidence to support the fact that a tent was sectionalised, but is there is any evidence to show that it was not.

Regarding the pack that was found in the uk, you say it looked similar to that seen in trajans column hance it has been assumed that thats what it is, is their any evidence to support that it was military, ie it's contents? Could it be a dispatch bag, pack for donkey? I must admit i've never seen one.

I'll tell you what, i'll draw a sketch of what im proposing and post it to see what you guys think. I must admit your knowledge of Roman military history and archeoligcal finds is immence, and compelling, but i'm just trying to look at things froma different perspective.. afterall, there no romans around to ask.

Kormanus
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#12
If you have access to the Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies (JRMES), you can read about, what pretty much all scholars agree is a tent fragment found at Vindolanda.

...the article "New Light on Old Tents" by Carol van Driel-Murray, in Volume 1 of the Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies ( http://www.jrmes.org ), which examines a portion of tent found at Vindolanda. The goatskin panels from that site were based on a "standard" rectangle about 20 by 30 inches.

To me, it doesn't make any sense at all that they would carry their tent in pieces. Why bother? You have a mule for that, which can carry the whole thing. Then, the parts don't get lost or misplaced either.

Why not carry mission essential gear on your person instead? Like tools and supplies that you'll for sure need should you become seperated, on patrol, or come under attack. No sense running to grab things from the mule when it's already on your marching pole. That way, it's right there and within easy reach.

Here is a reconstruction of a tent made by the ESG...listed is the dimensions of it when packed up. It's less than a meter for the leather parts!!! Why wouldn't you carry something that size on a mule??? And think about this: Why wouldn't you carry all of your personal possesions in your own marching backpack? Too many liablilities keeping it on a pack mule.
[url:11zlmb34]http://museums.ncl.ac.uk/archive/arma/contents/recon/tent/tent.htm[/url]

Tactically speaking I don't see your theory keeping the rain out too well.... Big Grin
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Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#13
"Tactically speaking I don't see your theory keeping the rain out too well.... "


With all due respect and courtesy to you Kormanus, neither do I. This theory is just not feasible in my own opinion. Just suppose this was indeed a tent folded up and attached to the furca, and that your personal belongings like a spoon, comb, eating utensils, etc., were all wrapped up in your cloak, and a sudden downpour occurs; what are you going to do with all of your little personal belongings? The theory simply doesn't make as much sense nor is it as practical as what has already been pretty much established as fact (at least until some major archaelogical evidence is discovered to prove us all wrong), and that is one thing that the Roman soldiers were...very practical. I still believe that they are intended to represent marching satchels, not folded tent sections.
Lucius Aurelius Metellus
a.k.a. Jeffrey L. Greene
MODERATOR
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#14
Not to mention in a sudden downpour it's going to take more time to set up a modular tent, than throwing up a few poles and drapping a leather piece over the entire kaboodle. Even if it's not raining, it'd take more time to set up a sectioned tent, poles and peg it, than one entire tent piece, poles and peg it.

Yeah, the functionality of the Romans (good point Lucius) dictates they'd do it the way that is generally accepted.
____________________________________________________________
Magnus/Matt
Du Courage Viens La Verité

Legion: TBD
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#15
I was actually surprised when I first picked up the Legio XX leather tent; it's about 45 pounds, and folded it by itself is not too much trouble to heft around. I could put it on a donkey/mule with no real effort. I can't see where it could be divided into sections, however, and easily put back together. Seems to me that is even more stress to the seams, the constant lacing together, than just heaving the whole thing around.
Richard Campbell
Legio XX - Alexandria, Virginia
RAT member #6?
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