RomanArmyTalk

Salvete

I have took a look on ALL tents shown on Trajan Column. There are many .. small and big
And no one shows :
- ropes
OR
- main vertical pole at the entrance

There are so many details on the Column ... and this detail was not important ?

Have you ever try to figure it out ... why ?

Maybe those tents had different constructions inside ?
Maybe its not comfortable to have main pole just in the middle of the entrance ?

What do you think about two different ways of making construction shown below ?

Also for small legionary tents 'triangle- version' ... construction could be made in this way (turn it up side down) .. 'V__V'

Any ideas ?
I think that tents with such construction could stay without any ropes....

It could be that the ropes were added in the painting job.

Quote:It could be that the ropes were added in the painting job.

That seems a little unlikely considering details such as panels, seams and creases and folds, are clearly carved.

I think Cacaius/Cezary makes a plausible and interesting point - and one which, if correct, would solve one of the problems in interpreting both Polybius' and Hyginus' camp layouts - that of allowing space for guy-ropes. If there were none, then major problems disappear !!

Hello,

This might not mean anything as Roman tents are beyond my range of interests, but is it possible that a tent, especially one made of hides (which to me = heavy) might be more stable with a wooden frame-work that doesn't require supporting ropes?

This would facilitate economy of space outside the tent by eliminating ropes and stakes to trip over, plus more room inside and a clear doorway.

If the framing was more like a house it could be erected, the tent placed over it and pinned down around the outside bottom. Also, in warm weather aren't these hide tents very warm? How were they vented? If there is a stable framework it would be possible to lift the bottom to facilitate air circulation. Even my canvas 18th century "A" tent (for F&I period reenacting) is like an oven in the summer.

Just some thoughts which may not mean anything....

And such tents could be easily moved from one place to another.

Exactly like viking framed tents ...
Or ....

This tank

Avete!

Surviving tent pieces have attachments for ropes, including a few pieces of leather rope. Hyginus mentions leaving space for the ropes when laying out the size of each tent space. And aren't those ropes visible in the 2nd photo, right above the head of the man on the left?

We've been using our leather tent at reenactments for over 15 years. Never seen any kind of problem with our pole arrangement, ridgepole and 3 uprights. (We use 3 because our ridgepole is 2 pieces for ease of transport.) It has withstood violent thunderstorms without any threat of falling over or blowing away. Quick to set up and take down. I doubt hot weather was that much of a concern, since you'd only be trying to sleep in the tent during darkness, and if it's still too hot you can just not use the tent!

With things like this, I tend to keep it simple, with the understanding that if we DO find concrete evidence on how it was really done, it will be much more complicated and not at all what we expected! Probably have hinges, too....

Valete,

Matthew

Quote:Maybe those tents had different constructions inside ?

You have been pre-empted by no less an authority than Professor Sir Ian Richmond. Commenting on this scene (or one very like it) he wrote:*

Quote:These tents are held on a square framework of poles, with gabled roofs. They are made up of squares of leather, hemmed and jointed, with thick prominent seams. The roofs have an ample overfall, to ensure that the drippings fall clear of the side walls. Their entrance is from the front, and is formed by making the front wall in two pieces, draped back like a curtain.

(The important bit is the "framework of poles".)

* Article (1935) reprinted in: Trajan's Army on Trajan's Column (London, 1982), p. 28.

Oooo ... I have never heard about this from Sir Ian Richmond

By the way ...

Another small granade into glass of water below :

I have no idea if this was discussed before.
But .. Look on the picture in last post ABOVE.

There is a tent with HEAVY front made out of sewn panels ... for sure leather.
But there is LIGHT front made out of linen or silk on the tent at the far end on the right side.

Similar here :



and



There is no mistake.

There are TWO TYPES of "how to make the front curtains"
I have never seen any reconstruction in this style..

Also ... looking on last picture.
It can be clearly seen : the wooden frames on sides of the front entrance.

And the small tent on the left .. is so closeby.
And no ropes can be clearlyu visible.

Hmmm

Hmmm ....

Quote:
And the small tent on the left .. is so closeby.
And no ropes can be clearly visible.

I'm sure you (and Sir Ian!) are right about the timber frame on the big tents, and I certainly don't want to rain on your parade, but I'm not sure how much weight you can put on the fact that the little tent is close beside the big tent. (This is perilously close to asking "how big is that man's shield?" Answer: a lot bigger than the sculpture shows!)

Hyginus (de munitionibus castrorum 1) refers to the tensura of the legionary tent, for which a gap of 2 feet is left (iirc). I have always imagined that this was the space for the guy ropes. (Tensura, from the verb tendo, means something like "pulling tight".) But I suppose Hyginus might simply mean that some working space must be left for those erecting the tents.

I have tent camped for fifty years. Some of the tents I've been in were roped and pegs (most of them, actually) and some were supported by various frames, poles, etc. Those that have external guylines and pegs are very much more stable in bad weather, as the stresses put on the fabric by wind is distributed over a much wider surface area.

When we first pitched a Roman camp, without knowing any better, we put the row of papilios in such a way that the wall pegs of one were the guyline pegs of the tent next to it. The ropes made Xs between the pairs of tents. Very stable, minimized the space needed, and looked neat and "military". Did the Romans do this? I don't know, but we'll continue to do so, nevertheless.

The frame to support a leather tent of the size of a centurion or higher rank (bigger tent) would be an amazing amount of wood to carry around. Not every location for a camp had sufficient trees to cut, so tons of wood would have to be carried from place to place. They certainly could do this, but some of those poles would be longer than a single mule could manage. So how, then would they be transported?

I think the tent ropes were omitted from Trajan's Column, simply because showing all the ropes to put up a tent would obscure much detail, and would not be necessary to the composition. We see the tents, and understand they are tents. (We see the lorica segmentata and --- never mind) That's just my opinion, though. Interesting discussion!

This goes back also to how much do we rely on T's C for accuracy in equipment? I mean, if we're going to make all of our tents only with wooden frame work and no ropes, with fabric for the front openings, I guess I'll start making my segmentata and helmets EXACTLY like they are on the column.

Of course, that would fly in the face of all other evidence...and Dave is right, you're adding a LOT of wood to the backs of the poor buggers that have to lug it around. Or the donkey/ass...take your pick.

Guy rope attachments for roman tents:

Guy rope attachments from Newstead

wow...................:roll:

From Roman Military Equipment - Bishop and Coulston, pg. 116.

"...The construction they (McIntyre and Richmond, 1934) offered, based on a compromise between misinterpretations of depictions on Trajan's Column and the space allowed for each tent in Pseudo-Hyginus' description of a Roman camp, has had to change as more finds of leatherwork have been made.....It is now thought that at least one variety of the Roman tent was much bigger than Richmond and McItyre had envisaged and may in fact have had a wooden frame inside."

Cheers,

So it looks like the milites tents had guy ropes, larger ones did not...

I have a feeling that I know what some of you will say about this...but am I the only one who thinks that perhaps this may just be artistic license? They were sort of "selective" about their depictions of things in art and statuary. With the super-human effort needed to complete the intricate work of Trajan's Column, ropes and extra poles might just have been an additional deatil that would have been:

A. Difficult to render (without cluttering the image).
B. A time-saving measure. After all, you carve a tent, its obviously a tent.

If I draw a wheel on a cart and I don't draw all the spokes, its still obviously a wheel. It doesn't detract from the theme or the overall message of the frame. In other words, it seems like a small detail that doesnt detract from the artist's intent.

This seems especially true to me in the case of a statue that stands 50 or more feet in the air.

OK let er rip - (I cringe and await the inevitable backlash of calls of blasphemy!") :evil: