Attic Helmet too good to be true?

[Marcus Mummius]

If you're going to buy an "off-the shelf" Attic then I suggest you contact the people at www.varmouries.com as soon as possible since they're closing down. They have the cheapest Attics on the market that look half-way decent and they can be reworked quite a bit. I know people who have reshaped and recut theirs to better imitate the dimensions seen on the artwork. But the company may not have anymore.

They are all sold out...

[Theodosius the Great]

Do you mean monumental artwork or provincial smaller scale sculptures?

Everything. Tombstones, reliefs, statues, etc.. Connolly's "Greece and Rome at War" is full of examples.

A tombstone from Viennashowing a centurion's helmet.

To be honest, I can't recall even an accurate Montefortino, and those that people point to crying "Montefortino!" look dubious to me and more hellenistic. Now and again I'm sure I've also seen a minor detail dotted about that could be, but nothing conclusive.

One Montefortinocomin' up : from Florence

I think it's safe to assume that the most familiar form of helmets that would've been known to civilians in Rome would be those of the Praetorian Guard. So, there's a chance that the sculptors merely assumed that all legionaries wore identical helmets.

Not necessarily. Robinson believes they may also or alternatively have been helmets for vigiles.

True. Vigiles and Night Watch were eventually recognized as part of the military.

Here's a 1st c. BC relief showing an Italo-Corinthian

And two clear examplesof Italo-Corithians.

~Theo

[Theodosius the Great]

Would the authorities allow artists to possess real weapons and armor?

Weapons ? Unlikely. Armor / helmets : why not ?

Yeah, especially inside the city...

The Praetorians had their own armory right in Rome.

~Theo

[Theodosius the Great]

They are all sold out...

What a shame.

Maybe Luca would like to buy mine.

Of course, my asking price would be about 3 times more than what varmories charged.

~Theo

[Theodosius the Great]

I have a frontal view of the Thielenhofen helmet here:

I never noticed the etching on the brow guard. It sure doesn't look like this was worn in battle or intended to be.

~Theo

[Crispvs]

Is that the helmet from Autun? It looks more like the Thielenhofen helmet to me. The only example I know from Autun is the Italo-Corinthian with the wreaths.

Crispvs

[Theodosius the Great]

Whoops ! :oops:

You're right, Crispvs. I'll make the correction to my last post.

Thank you for spotting that.

~Theo

[MeinPanzer]

What of these two examples?

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/attics.JPG

LEFT: Bronze helmet, c. 125 AD. From the Museum für Kunst und Gewerbe Hamburg, Inv. Nr. 1917.187.

RIGHT: Silver (or tinned?) helmet, C. 100 AD. From a museum in Toledo, Ohio. After "The Journal of Roman Studies" 50, 1960, Taf. 1.

[Tarbicus]

Search for 'Toledo helmet'. The one on the right is a definite and proven fake from Victorian times. You can get the report from the Toledo museum. The left one would need the same kind of analysis for me to believe it's genuine.

[Luca]

hock: hock: hock:

[Tarbicus]

Luca, why so shocked? hock: Robinson mentions the one on the right and even then he said it was a probably a Victorian fake, which it's been absolutely proven to be very recently.

[Luca]

I put the hock: before to read your message....
we wrote our replies in the same time.

I revoke the hock: hock: hock: !

[marcii ulpi messala]

Estimated Theo, in the sepulchral stone of Vienna that you present, the crest of the helmet could be represented frontalmente to show it it completes, the frontal representation of the same one had been too simple, you upset a line, the same thing the artist does with the cheek pieces and the sleeves of the lorica. There is some most archaeological evidence that demonstrates that the centurion I use the crest frontalmente?

[Theodosius the Great]

Ulpi,

I'm a little confused about what your question is, but I believe the Vienna tombstone accurately shows how a centurion wore his crest because we have archeological evidence to support it. There are holes on the helmet, near the temples, that are meant for leather laces which hold the crest box in place.

the same thing the artist does with the cheek pieces and the sleeves of the lorica.

You mean artists tend to narrow the cheek pieces in order to show the men's faces ? Yes, I believe that's an artistic technique which results in diminishing the accuracy of their work. But I believe this artistic technique was applied only to the cheek pieces and no other parts of the helmet.

That's why the cheek pieces on my Attic helmet are not as narrow as seen on the artwork from the Imperial period.

~Theo

[Luca]

right.

but let me add that, if we can consider the attic mainly for parade purposes, the less protective cheeck piece could be also real and not only an artistic way to represent it.[/i][/b]