Attic Helmet too good to be true?

Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Printable Version

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Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Luca - 03-18-2007

I don't know if this was already discussed in old topics, but I wonder about this attic helmet: it is too good to be real!

Here

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Peroni - 03-18-2007

Yep! Another of those now famous fakes!!

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - tommy303 - 03-19-2007

Aside from possible bits and pieces such a cheek guard and visor piece, are there any verifiable examples of a senior officer's attic style helmet extant? I personally am not aware of any save the possible parade helmet from Autun.

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Theodosius the Great - 03-19-2007

Quote:Aside from possible bits and pieces such a cheek guard and visor piece, are there any verifiable examples of a senior officer's attic style helmet extant? I personally am not aware of any save the possible parade helmet from Autun.

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Theodosius the Great - 03-19-2007

I wonder why so many reenactors insist on "hard" (i.e. archaeological) evidence for this helmet's existence when many of them share the omnipresent shield emblem of winged lightning bolts that's, afaik, only known from sculptural works. They can't make the same leap of faith when it comes to this helmet for some reason. (And I use the Dura emblem for my scutum) Tongue

wink:

~Theo

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Praefectusclassis - 03-19-2007

Perhaps because in the case of helmets, there are many (some 400) actual examples to offset the sculptural evidence?

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Theodosius the Great - 03-19-2007

If so that's a poor rationale, Imo.

Those 400 are all lower ranker types, afaik. (Btw, does that figure include Greek ?)

Only 400 known legionary helmets survive from an army of some 250,000 soldiers spanning over a two-hundred year period and people wonder why not a single "Attic" has turned up ?

No one should be surprised by the absence of surviving fragments of the "Attic" helmet. It makes perfect statistical sense when you consider that they worn by a highly limited number of individuals (e.g. Tribunes, Legates, etc..)

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Theodosius the Great - 03-19-2007

Here's a Samite Attic helmet :
[Image: attic_samnite.jpg]

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Just to expand a bit on what I said earlier : When I see reliefs from the Louvre Museum I can't believe that the detail achieved could not have been copied from an actual model sitting in front of the sculptor.
Here's probably the most detailed relief of the Attic helmet that I know of dating to the Principate :

[Image: Louvre_2.jpg]

That this kind of detail is merely the product of some urbane artist's imagination seems farfeteched to me. A similar level of detail is repeated on the more (most) famous relief showing five "Praetorians."

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Luca - 03-19-2007

Theodosius,

you are right, I believe after all these years none can say: "attic helmets" are fantasy.
BUT
I simply hate them, for this simply reason I didn't have the courage yet to buy one of these even if we should play the role of praetorians. In fact we always say to public that we are in field combat suite and not in parade one, so basically we use to dress as legionaries justifying this with Tacitus.
But there is another think. We usually try to replicate an object that archeology has discovered because of a lot of construction details that a sculpture cannot "give".

As I mentioned before.... I will, yes, I will buy one attic..... Sad

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Tarbicus - 03-19-2007

I'm not yet convinced of the attic as seen in monumental sculptural representation, based on the legionary helmets on other monumental reliefs with the rings on top - the only one found turned out to be a Victorian fake (notice how all the fakes on Ebay match sculptural work?), and there are lots of non-officer helmets found that don't match the same reliefs except one, slightly; the Italic A. But on that the 'peaked browguard and curls' are embossed from the bowl.

One of the only monumental reliefs showing helmets that closely match found ones is Adamklissi, which all seem to agree was made by soldiers if not locals, and certainly not classically trained high society sculptors based mainly in Rome.

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Theodosius the Great - 03-19-2007

Ave Luca,

I think it's more proper to debate the possible anachronistic use of Attics in artwork rather than their existence. They clearly look like outgrowths from earlier, confirmed Attic helmets. And we all know that helmet designs evolve over decades.

Battle gear is a great idea. The only way to distinguish yourselves from regular legionaires, I believe, would be to paint stars and cresent moons on your scuta. Granted, the subtlety will go unnoticed by the uninformed public but that's one reason you're there : to educate ;-) )

My group will also start wearing battle gear probably this year.

Quote:But there is another think. We usually try to replicate an object that archeology has discovered because of a lot of construction details that a sculpture cannot "give".

One way to partially overcome this problem could be to base your reconstruction partly on known surviving examples - like the Samnite Attic.

If you're going to buy an "off-the shelf" Attic then I suggest you contact the people at www.varmouries.com as soon as possible since they're closing down. They have the cheapest Attics on the market that look half-way decent and they can be reworked quite a bit. I know people who have reshaped and recut theirs to better imitate the dimensions seen on the artwork. But the company may not have anymore.

~Theo

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Theodosius the Great - 03-19-2007

Quote:and there are lots of non-officer helmets found that don't match the same reliefs

That's only true for Principate artwork. Even early Principate artwork still accurately depicts some known helmets that were in use at the time.

Quote:One of the only monumental reliefs showing helmets that closely match found ones is Adamklissi, which all seem to agree was made by soldiers if not locals, and certainly not classically trained high society sculptors based mainly in Rome.

I think it's safe to assume that the most familiar form of helmets that would've been known to civilians in Rome would be those of the Praetorian Guard. So, there's a chance that the sculptors merely assumed that all legionaries wore identical helmets.

~Theo

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Tarbicus - 03-19-2007

Quote:That's only true for Principate artwork. Even early Principate artwork still accurately depicts some known helmets that were in use at the time.

Do you mean monumental artwork or provincial smaller scale sculptures? In the early principate were the classic attics shown or more traditional hellenistic ones (a question not a statement)? To be honest, I can't recall even an accurate Montefortino, and those that people point to crying "Montefortino!" look dubious to me and more hellenistic. Now and again I'm sure I've also seen a minor detail dotted about that could be, but nothing conclusive.

Quote:I think it's safe to assume that the most familiar form of helmets that would've been known to civilians in Rome would be those of the Praetorian Guard. So, there's a chance that the sculptors merely assumed that all legionaries wore identical helmets.

Not necessarily. Robinson believes they may also or alternatively have been helmets for vigiles.

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - richsc - 03-19-2007

Quote:an actual model sitting in front of the sculptor.

Since there were studios and factories for turning out reproductions from older originals, you then get the distinct possibility that the artists had their own box of props that they recycled from project to project. This would account for the same looking armor showing up over and over again. Would the authorities allow artists to possess real weapons and armor?

Re: Attic Helmet too good to be true? - Magnus - 03-19-2007

Yeah, especially inside the city...