Lorica Segmentata Girdle Plates problem

[brennivs - tony drake]

The tapering I am refering to is slite. If you have a copy of The Amour Of Imperial Rome 1975 First edition,pages175,180-181 Russell Robinson has put in a slite taper. This is to aiiow the plates to slide between each other without jamming so you can touch your toes. I have been making armour ect for 20 years. Ive also worked under the late John Anstee re pattern welded swords 1955 first experiment who also knew Russell Robinson with his job and found him to be a good chap.Also you will find most loricas in uk have this slite taper. Regards Brennivs

[marsvigilia]

I understand that you are talking about a slight taper. And perhaps many or even most reconstructions have a taper. And it does make sense. But making sense doesn't prove that this was what they did. I have AIR but I don't think it is as authoritative on segmentatas as some of the later work by Mike Bishop.

I realize I'm not providing any references, but I'm pretty sure that I understood MB to have said that there is no taper on the segmentatas found. But perhaps I mis-remember, or perhaps he is wrong, or perhaps only non-tapered segmentatas have survived.

On the other hand maybe there was no differentiation of the girdle plate lengths but a tapering effect could have been achieved by shifting slightly the placement of the closures to achieve the same result. Also with lacing loops if the lower ones are curled a bit more tightly and the upper ones are a bit looser it might have the same result. Or even not tying the upper ones as tightly. Though obviously there would be no evidence of this since it would be a matter of practice rather than construction.

But in any case I would like to see some evidence from finds if possible before constructing things differently than is suggested by current evidence.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hmmmm, would be the logical way to construct an overlapping tube of steel plates, made in two halves! Mine is made in a slight taper, and closes well!

[Magnus]

Me? Touch my toes... hock:

Mine may have a slight taper...now i'm not sure. I didn't think I built it with one, but now i'm not sure.

[Matthew Amt]

Once again, the girdle plates of one side of the lorica do NOT have to be different lengths. There WILL be a slight "stepped" effect but this is NOT a problem. The armor will work just fine. I've been making loricae for only 17 years, but this has not once been an issue.

I don't live near Corbridge, though I've been there once. You can't tell a thing from looking at the hunks of rust in the glass case. They're shown on the Armamentarium site, too--go look and tell me if I'm missing something obvious! Tony and I were looking at the Corbridge excavation report last night, and according to those drawings there is certainly no indication that the girdle plates decreased in length from one to the next. In fact, the lengths seem practically random! Sometimes the lower ones are shown as being LONGER than the upper ones. Others are broken or fragmentary, so you can't be sure. Actually, on the drawings of the interior and exterior of one set of plates, the lower plates seem to change length--they are longer in one drawing than in the other. Mike Bishop did warn against taking those drawings too literally, a while back, since they are of necessity an interpretation of pieces that are corroded together permanently, and very difficult to measure accurately.

Robinson's old book is a great one, but those lorica drawings (by Peter Connolly, by the way) are full of minor inaccuracies. They were godsends 30 years ago, but should NOT be taken as gospel any more, just guidelines.

I also looked at the drawings of the girdle plates from Stillfried. They are suspiciously perfect, with nice neat plates that are all identical in length. Even those that are damaged or fragmentary are lined up with the ends of the complete ones. It doesn't seem safe to draw any solid conclusions from them.

Why does this have to be complicated? Make the plates the same, slap the fittings on, stick them on their leathers. You can bend them before or after assembly--we tried curving them after assembly a couple weeks ago for the first time, and it was surprisingly easy (thanks, Sean!). But UNLESS your chest is significantly larger than your waist, making all the girdle plates equal in length is still the way to go.

Valete,

Matthew

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Don't most people have tapered torso's?

[Magnus]

Don't most people have tapered torso's?

Hahaha, depends what your body fat % is sitting at. :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

Don't most people have tapered torso's?

Hahaha, depends what your body fat % is sitting at. :wink:

I fear my torso is wider at the bottom....

[brennivs - tony drake]

I dare say this will go on.

[Tarbicus]

Has anyone factored in a fascia ventralis or girdled tunic for back support, or even a bunched up big tunic?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I thought about that but envisioned a hard knot digging into the top of my back, so have not tried it, to be honest.

[Tarbicus]

I'd have thought the knot should really be sticking out through the seg's neck hole.

[Marcus Mummius]

I'd have thought the knot should really be sticking out through the seg's neck hole.

I've worn my seg for very long periods with a baggy tunic tied in a knot at the back of the neck. The knot stuck out of the neckhole. Otherwise it would be pretty uncomfortable. A fascia ventralis is needed to get the baggy tunic under control and fit everything inside the segmentata.

Vale,

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well I guess that put's that demon to rest...... ? roll:

[brennivs - tony drake]

Hows about I try to get these measurements.I work for the museum service and I will try to help out.Sods law will make me be the wrong one,but being helpful is more important.I may take a while but I will post on the forum.As I have found out in the roman world there is more than one way to do the same job.I pondered the same points you have raised 18 years ago,and found the large groups here had tappered they loricas,as well as Robinson.Since I could not find a reference to plate length,hence I may have ended up on the Dark side :!: :lol: But looking at the orignal pieces I still think they is slite varation.
Regards Brennivs D