Proposed Centurion Pteryges

[Tarbicus]

I know it's cheap and tough, but wouldn't it be too stiff for the purpose?

That's where actually making them comes in. Maybe, maybe not, but the pteryges would not all be in one piece, but individual strips laced together on a chord that attaches to the subarmalis, allowing for more individual movement. They would also need shaping at the back to avoid sticking out like a ballerina's skirt methinks.

May well be impractical for a variety of reasons, and I'd never make a claim they were used, but imagine the benefits in protection if they did work out.

[Robert Vermaat]

That's where actually making them comes in. Maybe, maybe not, but the pteryges would not all be in one piece, but individual strips laced together.

I'll give it a go. I can slide a strip of rawhide between the canvas and linen of my pteryges and see what happens before I attach them.

I hope to avoid the Hawaiian skirt model... :lol:

[Doc]

I have nearly completed my pteryges. I proceeded to make mine out of layered linen. I used a coarse canvas type linen and enveloped the entire stack in a "finer" white linen. The outside finer linen was made into a raised edge and secured using a gold thread. The natural fringe of the linen is twisted into a rope pattern. I have three rows of pteryges, where each strip is about 6.4mm thick and about 6.4 cm wide. These are measurments for the leg skirt. The arm dimensions are exactly half of the le skirt dimensions. Once I complete them, I will post some pictures.

[Robert Vermaat]

Once I complete them, I will post some pictures.

Thanks Paolo.

Would you please enter your name into your signature, too? Forum rule.

[Magnus]

Looking forward to the pics!

[Doc]

Since I am new to RAT, how do I enter my name into my signature?

I'll try and get the pics out shortly. Currently I am busy with roping the fringe at the bottom of my pteryges. I have to use some linen to hold the twist in a rope shape. I have not been able to make them stay twisted otherwise.

Thanks

Paolo

[Robert Vermaat]

Since I am new to RAT, how do I enter my name into my signature?

Read this message.

[gaiusseptimiuslucianus]

Robert, Tarbicus et all,

Re putting rawhide into the pteruges, I would be concerned about it getting wet and the rawhide swelling and deforming them, then trying to get them dried again. Remeber these were worn in the field in any weather. I just think it could get kind of gacky (to coin a word).

Lucianus

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Luke,

That's a valid point. Although I don't think that such narrow strips will swell much (and they become only soft when drenched for a longer period of time), I agree that drying them may very well leave them deformed....
Maybe leather is better.

[Marcus Mummius]

Hi Luke,

That's a valid point. Although I don't think that such narrow strips will swell much (and they become only soft when drenched for a longer period of time), I agree that drying them may very well leave them deformed....
Maybe leather is better.

As I stated above: if the rawhide it soaked in lineseed oil it shouldn't be affected by water a lot. At least that is what I have been told. I've saturated a piece of rawhide with lineseed oil and plan to let it sit in a bucket of water for a while to see how it reacts. I'm not at home right now but will be able to do this test in two weeks. I'll let you know the results :wink:

Vale,

[Doc]

When some of the statuary work is observed carefully, the sides of the ptergyes strips are not, at least to me, as rectangular as those on the Prima Porta where the sides of each strip are really straight. On some sculptures, the strips seem rounded at the edges possibly indicating that some rather soft material was folded over the core. :?:

Also some of the ptergyes are quite flexible (I know it has been discussed before). However, this flexibilty is not achieved (at least for me) using glues. On the other hand if the layers are stiched, then flexibility is obtained along with a certain amount of rigidness that comes from the thickness of the layers. Not to mention that stiching will allow for washing, soaking in rain or sweat. Glues tend to fall apart if given a good soak (again my experience).

One final point I'd like to make is that things that are very rigid tend to be more susceptible to cutting since all the material is available for cutting in one concentrated space. Thus the force of a blow will have to be rebounded since the material has no place to go. This rebound forces the material to push against the sharp instrument causing a cut.

Materials that have some space between them allow for compression. Thus stiching will allow it to be more compressible (I would think) absorbing a blow much better since there is space in between the materials that allow movemnet before rebound. :?:

Sorry if the post is long or if some of these ideas were mentioned before and I may have missed them from prior posts.

Thanks

a.k.a Doc

[Doc]

Sorry

My siganture should have read

a.k.a.Paolo

[Robert Vermaat]

Sorry
My siganture should have read
a.k.a.Paolo

Writing it under each message is not enough Paolo - you must really enter this into your signature in your profile.

[ursinius]

Lectoribus salvtem dico,

In the castellum of Valkenburg NL, a leather strap was found in the 1980's with the bottom cut like fringes.... If I recall it correctly it is published as a drawing in the this report:

R.M. van Dierendock, D.P. Hallewas & K.E. Waugh,(1993): The Valkenburg Excavations 1985-1988.

Book contains a lot of organic finds: wood , shoes, leather clothing parts(?) tent parts, antler, bone.

It is not necessarily true in my opinion that stitching proves a fabric base material for pteruges.
Pteruges could also be made by folding a rectangle in half to create a thicker but smaller rectangle/strip. That requires at least lenghtwise stitching at one side.. When overlapping (and I believe all pteruges should do that), only that stitchline is visible. Also the straps of horse gear was stitched and so was the single layer leather "apron strip" from Mainz The function of the stitching is then to prevent the (softer) leather straps from curling up. This is a common feature on roman leather straps.

Ursinius/Sebastiaan.

[Doc]

In my previous post I was not implying that because something is stiched that it was made of cloth and not leather. I was specifically pointing out that if :!: a layered material like linen were used, in my opinion stiching the layers would have been better than just glue. This is based of course on what I have observed while making my own and looking at some of the statues.

Paolo