Proposed Centurion Pteryges

[Magnus]

Ok, here's an updated picture of my proposed pteryges:



Christian, I'll also look into the rolls of linen like you posted at my local fabric shops. It'll save me some cutting...lol.

[Peroni]

There still appears to be gaps between your long lower strips. No gaps should be seen. Usually they overlap in two or more layers.

Why not have a look at the Centurion M. Favonivs Facilis' pteruges?

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

[Gaius_Calvus]

Ave,

What material are you using for the fringes? I have been looking all over for a suitable fringe for pteruges, and all I can find are made of nylon/acetate or a blend of these?

Edge

[caiusbeerquitius]

Such a great thing, our picture database!
Magnus, the construction of the pterges is great! However, Id make the braid in this manner:

You should have enough threads to do it from the front and back linen cover, also to make them thick enough. If you make them together with some golden weaving thread, you should get your desired effect. It´s a lot of work, but you´ll have a great result.

[Tarbicus]

Can't you just get a ball of appropriate wool, concertina a length so it forms a solid band, then sew the top ridge together, and snip-snip the lower edge so you have individual strands?

[caiusbeerquitius]

That should work, too. Good idea. But I guess you still have to knot around a little bit, ´cause the "tassles" will open up.

[Magnus]

There still appears to be gaps between your long lower strips. No gaps should be seen. Usually they overlap in two or more layers.

Why not have a look at the Centurion M. Favonivs Facilis' pteruges?

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

They look like single rows Adrian, with no overlap, and gaps between them.

[Peroni]

Have a look again. (below)I've cropped the picture it clearly shows two rows of 'strips' which overlap at the vertical edge of each stip.

Your drawing shows a gap between each of the vertical 'skirt flaps'. There should not be any gap between them. As Christian stated earlier in the thread.

Facilis stele..

[Magnus]

Hey Adrian, look again at the same gravestone, this time the blown up image from the imagebase:



Those are clearly gaps, with nothing beneath but a tunic. The size of the gaps as well are significant, while those on the picture you posted may simply be a trick of perspective the artist was trying to portray.

This would coincide with the other example I mentioned of the gravestone of the Centurion from AD 9 in A. Goldsworthy's "Roman Warfare" on page 110.

Based on these 2 examples, I don't see how it can be shown that centurions had more than a single row.

[Robert Vermaat]

Based on these 2 examples, I don't see how it can be shown that centurions had more than a single row.

I'm with Adrian - dozens of other examples from various periods show overlapping rows of several layers each. I find the image not very clear. The 'space' between the pteryges is dark - what's underneath? Nothing? Or a second row which the artist does not show?

[Magnus]

Are these examples of centurions though Vorti that you speak of? Or higher ranked officers?

[Magnus]

Something else to consider guys, some fundamental differences in the pteryges worn by different people.

The pteryges worn by Tribunes, Emperors, etc. were likely made out of the best, most expensive materials. Silk, linen. They could afford to be made thus. However, both the Adamklissi and T's Column show regular rank and file legionarys and auxilliarys in pteryges (looks like single row as well). Can you imagine the cost of equipping serveral thousand soldiers at least in high cost linen pteryges? This is not feasible, especially if you are considering doing double, triple, quadrupple rows.

Also look at their intended use. My belief is that they weren't used for defense, but rather as a traditional sign of rank or a soldier, depeding on the number of pteryges and rows. If you look at those of very high rank, we see multiple rows, using some type of white textile. Contrast that to those seen on lower ranked soldiers, and it appears to be a single row, material unknown at this point (see also Connolly's Legionary illustrations). Based on the grave stones of centurions, it looks to me as though they fall somewhere in the middle, leaning towards the pteryges of the emperors and tribunes they wish to exemplify.

[Robert Vermaat]

Are these examples of centurions though Vorti that you speak of? Or higher ranked officers?

Both.

Also look at their intended use. My belief is that they weren't used for defense, but rather as a traditional sign of rank or a soldier, depending on the number of pteryges and rows.

I do not agree. We see this them from BC until well into Byzantine times. That is just way too long for a simple fashion. Therefore I think they were practical used first, as part of a subarmalis.

Styles can vary, of course. But when we see so many changes in tunics, trousers, footware, etc., and yet pteryges staying for so long, I'd say no to a principle use as fashion and no defence.

[Magnus]

But what about crest attachments? They've been in use just as long...are they not a fashion which has survived the ages, and also as a sign of rank / soldierly profession?

If you agree that styles vary, is it not possible then, based on simple economics to equip soldiers who really can't afford layer upon layer of expensive materials, with something cheaper and easier to obtain? Or go one row of something thicker?

Sorry guys, I'm not debating these points to nit-pick, I'm just genuinely interested in this for some reason.

And I promise, if I can't find anything definitve on my own, I'll make a double, maybe overlapping or very close together row of the longer pteryges. lol

[Peroni]

Magnus, I see what you're getting at, but I'm sorry, but the facilis stone overlaps. What you have indentified as gaps are in fact the depth of the strap in the sculpture. Because it is carved in three dimensions, you are actually looking at the thickness of the strip NOT a gap between.

Take a cereal box from your cupboard - look at it so that you can see both the side face and the front face. Now colour the side face in red like you have for the photo. That's what I'm trying to say. :wink:

This stone is in my local museum.

Based on these 2 examples, I don't see how it can be shown that centurions had more than a single row.

What? hock: it's right in front of you! Facilis has TWO rows of pteruges!