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Quote:Crispvs:1ev1dsxs Wrote:the 'smurf' helmets of some soldiers on the arch of Septimius Severus and on one or two sarcophacae;
....Perhaps someone decided to go one better than the arch of Septimius Severus and sculpt taller smurf helmets which ended up accidentally looking like Thracian helmets. If so he could have seen it and copied it and we would be none the wiser because 90% of the sculptures and paintings he could have used as influences have disappeared since then....
An example here:
[url:1ev1dsxs]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?p=108832#108832[/url]
Those aren't "Thracian" helmets, just helmets with pointed crests. Helmets with "Phrygian" peaks have the peak organically emerge from the bowl of the helmet rather than being a separate addition, and the peak has a rounded and bulbous point rather than a pointed one.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Quote:Those aren't "Thracian" helmets, just helmets with pointed crests. Helmets with "Phrygian" peaks have the peak organically emerge from the bowl of the helmet rather than being a separate addition, and the peak has a rounded and bulbous point rather than a pointed one.
Who can say the ones in the mosaics are actually Thracian helmets, and not the same as the ones seen in the late Roman relief I linked to?
[url:r0iqi11x]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/download.php?id=871[/url]
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Quote:MeinPanzer:19svkrvl Wrote:Those aren't "Thracian" helmets, just helmets with pointed crests. Helmets with "Phrygian" peaks have the peak organically emerge from the bowl of the helmet rather than being a separate addition, and the peak has a rounded and bulbous point rather than a pointed one.
Who can say the ones in the mosaics are actually Thracian helmets, and not the same as the ones seen in the late Roman relief I linked to?
[url:19svkrvl]http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/download.php?id=871[/url]
If you mean the ones in this image:
![[Image: JL-029.jpg]](http://www.mcah.columbia.edu/dbcourses/klein/medium/JL-029.jpg)
Then there appear to be two types of helmets. If you look at the two charioteers in the bottom right, they clearly wear helmets with bulbous Phrygian peaks, and not high crests. Others appear to wear this type of helmet too, but others appear to wearc Intercisa helmets with sharp crests (like the image you just linked above).
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Good point. But it's not necessarily a big surprise, given the mix'n'match in the mosaics.
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Quote:Good point. But it's not necessarily a big surprise, given the mix'n'match in the mosaics.
Now that I look at it a bit more, I'm starting to think that there might be some Hellenistic influences. The cavalrymen carrying Argive shields is a very Hellenistic image, and one that I don't think I've seen before in other later "Classicized" imagery; while infantry are often later shown carrying the Argive shield, cavalry are not.
Ruben
He had with him the selfsame rifle you see with him now, all mounted in german silver and the name that he\'d give it set with silver wire under the checkpiece in latin: Et In Arcadia Ego. Common enough for a man to name his gun. His is the first and only ever I seen with an inscription from the classics. - Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian
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Yes! 
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Just to throw one of the Dura shields into the mix, take a look at the (presumably) Roman soldiers killing (presumably again) Parthians, especially their helmets with plumes. The shields of red with white borders, I think, represent the same shield they are painted on.
They look remarkably similar to some soldiers in the mosaics.
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Hmm, I wonder if the artist meant to represent late Roman armor of the day, or if he had to show what he thought would resemble armor of Egypts, Greek, earlier Romans, etc..
If someone asked me now to draw a modern soldier from - let's say - Russia, I would just draw the way I imagine (ancient Romans had no Internet, at least we don't think so).
This thought might have to be applied to those illustrations, as well, I suggest. I don't think they tell some stories of AD 430.
Maybe, the artist still used authentic late-Roman armor of AD 430, but i somehow doubt. He might have tried to symbolize older armor types with his mosaic.
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In actual fact, the consensus seems to be it depicts the Trojan War after all. Interesting that the slain Trojans seem to be wearing contemporary tunics (?), so it makes me wonder about the victorious Greeks who are holding what I think are versions of the same shield.
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