Knowing the Mycenaean warrior

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks Mathew.
B.A. light infantry was probably better than classic psiloi.

Herders defending flocks and becoming adept with the sling cannot be called inexperienced. The same applies to hillmen hunter archers.
Missle troops even "non armored" in bad terrain or fortifications can cause serious trouble. Probably they couldn't afford to armor themselves but that does not mean that the lacked motivation.
Is seems that miitary service was compulsory in Greece from the B.A.
Spolas is just one interpretation of the Tyrins fresco.
I imagine lack of shields as artistic license or even "ritual combat" but I agree with you that interpretations are quite a lot.

Agree that warrior elite would be the best armed and armored but that doesn't mean that other troops were completely unarmored.
Some say that the administration was arming the levies.
It is not impropable

Kind regards

[Ioannis]

One thing I'm leery of is dismissing Homer entirely as a reference. I do NOT advise taking him literally, mind you! As I said, he's a storyteller, not a modern historian. But to discard the major literary work about the era as completely "wrong" seems like an odd approach, to me. We know he was right about a lot of things.

Matthew when I'm sayng that trying to reconstruct Mycenaean warfare (and not only) based on Homer is wrong, I do mean it. Both the military and the social realities presented by Homer have nothing to do with Late Bronze culture. Don't get fooled by archaisms (is that a word??) such as the boar-tusk helmets etc. As I said, most of the evidence fits better within an EIA context instead of a Mycenaean.

Anyways, for all those interested in "Homeric Warfare", I have to suggest the following titles:

Van Wees, H. 1994. "The Homeric Way of War: The Iliad and the Hoplite Phalanx (I)", Greece & Rome 41.1: 1-18.


Van Wees, H. 1994. "The Homeric Way of War: The Iliad and the Hoplite Phalanx (II)", Greece & Rome 41.2: 131-155.

Albracht, F. 2005. Battle and Battle Description in Homer: A Contribution to the History of War (translated and edited by P. Jones, M. Willcock and G. Wright), Duckworth.

[john m roberts]

I think that here in America we do not understand what is implied by the term "shepherd." Pastoral poetry created the image of the shepherd sitting on a rock, tootling on a flute and wooing some shepherdess named Phyllis or Phoebe. Also, chivvying sheep, a docile animal, doesn't seem as macho as herding cattle like a cowboy. In 1000 BC Europe had bears, wolves and even lions. Protecting flocks of sheep was no job for sissies. There was a tradition that shepherds often went back and forth between shepherding and brigandage. They were generally acknowledged as being a rough lot and they would have made excellent light infantry.

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks John,
As for the predators mentioned we have
wolves, bears, lions, mountain lions (cougar), leopards in Pylos!

Also there were probably more goats than sheep. Nona called goats a docile animal. They are hard to control and they can destroy cultivated areas.
You have to defend against ruined farmers who might want to even with you.
So pastoring is no job for weaklings.

Kind regards

[Dan Howard]

Back in the bronze age sheep and goats are virtually the same animal.

[hoplite14gr]

Given the mountainous Greek terrain the goat is usually favored over the sheep. Pastoral populations driven to high places would probably had more goats than sheep.
The hard to control voracious goats give plenty causes for strife since they can devastate cultivation even eat woolen and linen cloth(!!!).
It still is number one cause for injury and death and a good source of income for lawyers. One can imagine what could capen in the B.A.

Kind regards

[Matthew Amt]

Herders defending flocks and becoming adept with the sling cannot be called inexperienced. The same applies to hillmen hunter archers.

Oh, I agree with what you and John are saying! Hey, go ask Goliath, right? All I mean is that when a book says something like "skirmishers consctripted from hillmen and goatherders", many laymen will get an image of a ragged bunch of stupid hillbillies who will either get slaughtered, or run screaming like little girls! I just think we should use more aggressive wording, sometimes.

Ioannis, I just got those two articles by Van Wees and will be reading them soon. I DEFINITELY need to read up on the subject before I can argue cogently! Thanks for the citations, and please keep it coming.

Khairete,

Matthew

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

EDIT: Joke deleted after reading today's newspaper.

Ralph
who is not joking about the deletion

[Ioannis]

Some references about animal husbandry in LBA Aegean:

Cherry, John F. 1988. Pastoralism and the Role of Animals in the Pre- and Protohistoric Economies of the Aegean. Whittaker, C.R., ed. Pastoral Economies in Classical Antiquity. Suppl. vol. 14. The Cambridge Philological Society, Cambridge. p. 4-34.

Halstead, Paul. 1998-1999. Texts, Bones and Herders: Approaches to Animal Husbandry in Late Bronze Age Greece. Bennet, John and Jan Driessen, eds. A-na-qo-ta. Studies Presented to J. T. Killen. Minos 33-34. p. 149-189 (Bibliographical Abbreviations, 371-375).

Halstead, Paul. 1996. Pastoralism or Household Herding? Problems of Scale and Specialization in Early Greek Animal Husbandry. World Archaeology 28. p. 20-42.

Halstead, Paul. 1987. Man and Other Animals in Later Greek Prehistory. BSA 82. p. 71-84.

Trantalidou, C. 1990. Animals and Human Diet in the Prehistoric Aegean. Hardy, D.A., J. Keller, V.P. Galanopoulos, N.C. Flemming, and T.H. Druitt, eds. Thera and the Aegean World III. Vol. 2: Earth Sciences. Proceedings of the Third International Congress, Santorini, Greece, 3-9 September 1989. The Thera Foundation, London. p. 392-405.

[hoplite14gr]

Thanks Ioannis.
Ralf not only in B.A. but in every historical period the legal advisor's opinion would influence a ruler/leader about the right of his cause and make him deciding a war. So joking apart you might had a point there.

Kind regards

[Ioannis]

Ioannis,
Pylian coast guard was published in the ISTORIKES SELIDES magazine in the Aufust 2006. His extensive treatment of the Bronze age Warrior fraternites was in the Lykaones Magazine over several issues.
Kind regards

Stefane, do you know where I can obtain copies of these?

Eucharisto!

[hoplite14gr]

Sent you PM

[Ioannis]

Well, to go back to our theme, an essential reading is "POLEMOS. Le contexte guerrier en Égée à l'âge du Bronze", Aegaeum 19 (1999). Some of the papers included:

# John BENNET and Jack L. DAVIS - Making Mycenaeans: Warfare, Territorial Expansion, and Representations of the other in the Pylian Kingdom

# Sigrid DEGER-JALKOTZY - Military Prowess and Social Status in Mycenaean Greece

# Robin L.N. BARBER - Hostile Mycenaeans in the Cyclades?

# Wolf-Dietrich NIEMEIER - Mycenaeans and Hittites in War in Western Asia Minor

# Joost CROUWEL - Fighting on Land and Sea in Late Mycenaean Times