Well, I'm learning a lot!! Thanks everyone for posting. Ioannis, I definitely see what you mean about the organization mentioned in the Pylos tablets. I'd still be inclined to assume that it was basically a *military* structure, since the whole society was headed by a military aristocracy. But yes, any conclusions beyond that are less than solid. Fascinating....
One thing I'm leery of is dismissing Homer entirely as a reference. I do NOT advise taking him literally, mind you! As I said, he's a storyteller, not a modern historian. But to discard the major literary work about the era as completely "wrong" seems like an odd approach, to me. We know he was right about a lot of things.
To get back to the nuts and bolts discussion, I'll take a few friendly jabs at Stefanos' reconstructed organization.
Quote:Archers, slingers,javelineeers with almost no armor.
Most probably recruited from hillmen herders.
Fair enough, though I'd caution against wording that implies these light infantry were inexperienced spear-fodder shepherds. They could have been simple common lower-class warriors whose "day job" was herding (the goatherd who fought alongside Odysseus against the suitors was clearly an experienced fighter!), or they were herders who had some training and organization as part of some "feudal" arrangement with the aristocracy. Or they could have been mercenaries, in which case I'd have to assume they weren't shepherds any more.
Quote:Pelast like infantry with boar task helmets javelins daggers/shortswords and some probable leather protection according to Tyrins freskoes.
Boar tusk helmets imply a warrior class, to me, if not necessarily the upper crust. I'd also be careful about implying leather protection--there are many other ways to interpret those frescoes! If you mean those kilts made of dark triangular flaps, I'd really say they couldn't be very protective even if they were metal! Too much open space.
Quote:Pike blocks with boartusk helmets and large square or 8-shaped shields
No problem, I agree these were probably a basic unit, but as I mentioned earlier, things like the large body shields and boar tusk helmets seem to be out of date by the Trojan War era. SEEM to be... Of course, there would still be a basic battle line of men with spears and shields, after the older equipment is gone, so I'm not disagreeing with the organization!
Quote:Elite close combat infantry with bronze helmets cuirass armed with javelins/spears and swords. Debated if they fought like classical phalanx or roman maniple.
Right, these are your warrior noblemen, the "heroes" if you will. They could fight in a phalanx or one-on-one, or whatever in between.
Quote:Thought to be "Bodyguard" unit.
Interesting, why consider them bodyguards? Guarding what? Even the kings were out there in the front line. Personal retainers they could certainly be, so maybe it's just a question of terminology and definition. I won't quibble.
Quote:Dismounted chariot crews with exrta heavy armor and aperence like nedieval knights in bronze. The later Archaic extra heavy hoplites might derive from them.
Earlier charioteers were archers, but I'd agree that they seem more like "mechanized infantry" by the Trojan War. I don't see any reason to assume they are more heavily armored, though, except for the obvious progression of most armored guys at the top of the heap down to the unarmored masses. The guys with the chariots could afford the most and the best armor, is what I mean, though I don't believe they functioned on foot any differently from the rest of the heavy infantry, necessarily. And yes, the warrior aristocracy is essentially the same in the Archaic as in the Bronze Age--it's the equipment and tactics that change.
Quote:Most shields are leather but bronze examples survive.
Making sure that "leather" can also mean "rawhide", agreed.
Quote:Linothorax was known and used - 15 layres according to Thebes arsenal.
Right, and quilted linen tunics seem to be shown on the frescoes, too.
Quote:If we don't know that ... what else don't we know.
That's the Big Scary Question, for sure!
Do I talk too much? Khairete,
Matthew