Knowing the Mycenaean warrior

[Mithras]

A question for the bronze age enthusiasts! How much do you think we can say for sure about the life of a Mycenaean warrior? The Late Bronze Age straddles that area between history and prehistory, with its written texts that seem to shed some light on Mycenaean military culture, but on so little else.

Obviously things like religion are beyond the scope - much there is conjecture. But what about palace life, food, clothing, military orrganization...

Is re-enactment and reconstruction of this possible?

In other words, how much of a historical novel (if it were to be written) could be based on evidence, how much would be conjecture?

Thanks for reading!

[hoplite14gr]

A wealth of information can be found here:
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Bronze_Age_C ... Reenacting

The Pylos tablets have shown a variety of unit types.

The economy and the social complexity of B.A. was better than the classical period.

Because of Homer Trojan war dominates but that war was just one campaign
in a titanic conflict that ravaged and dismantled the Aegean and Hittite empire and decimated Egypt.

Kind regards

[Matthew Amt]

As Stefanos says, we get a lot about organization and economics from the Linear B tablets. The palace cultures were highly sophisticated and stinking rich. We know a lot less about the lower classes, of course, but I expect that enough common houses have been found to give a pretty good idea of their basic lifestyle. It won't be far different from that of any other peasant or townsman through ancient history. They seem to have been comfortably above a subsistence level, at least.

Homer and other ancient legends probably give a good impression of social behavior such as gift-giving among nobles. Combined with references in Linear B tablets, you can also see religious practices, references to clothing, and other things.

Writing historical fiction about the era shouldn't be too hard, particularly since Homer and a number of modern writers have done it. When in doubt, be vague! Several times, Homer says that somebody gave someone else "a tunic and a purple cloak"--Great, what KIND of tunic, and what COLOR??? It's maddening. Actually reconstructing this stuff is a lot tougher, since every detail has to be done some way or other, and there is very little evidence to use. A century or two before the Trojan War era can be easier in some ways, since there is a lot more artwork. But the clothing styles and other things are clearly changing over time, so you can't treat "Mycenaean" as one single era, as far as visual appearance goes.

A classic dilemma is posed by the Warrior Vase, found at Mycenae and dating to the end of the Bronze Age:

http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/ ... etail2.jpg

What the heck are these guys wearing? I could write a whole book of different interpretations for each item, ranging from bronze armor from head to toe, to spaghetti strainers and Dr. Who scarves! There is also a Warrior Stele, which looks like it was painted by the same artist. It's in color, but the only online photo I've seen is this (reversed) black and white image:

http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/%7Ewarfare/Le ... _stele.JPG

It shows all the torsos and sleeves in darkish blue-gray, the "kilts" in either blue or yellow, and the "scarf" thingy in red. Still no way to tell what the dots are, or if armor is being shown, or what.

Here's my first reconstruction of these guys:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/WVase1.jpg

I'm working on a new shield, plank covered with rawhide and a scalloped bottom edge, and an entirely new tunic (blue linen with red trim and fringe). I honestly don't know if there is supposed to be body armor or not! We know there WAS armor. I plan to make a new cuirass, since the one shown is more of a Western European style. Might swap the water flask on the spear for a ration bag.

I do have to say that I haven't done much research at all on the day-to-day culture and such. Have to focus on the fiddly details that allow me to make clothes and armor! You are absolutely right that there is a ton of conjecture involved, but there could be a lot more known than you think, at least about the basics.

Khaire,

Matthew

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/bronze.html

[Ioannis]

The evidence from the Pylos tablets is simply overestimated. The so-called "O-KA" tablets, which are presumably regarded as records of military dispositions on the Pylian coast, feature lots of terms (including the word o-ka itself) that still resist exact identification. As Hooker (1980: 124) says "it is impossible to mention a single term whose connotation is necessarily and unambiguously 'military'." Having said that, most scholars today feel relatively comfortable to accept these tablets as lists describing the various units guarding the coast of the Pylian kingdom.

According to these tablets the whole coast is divided into 10 sectors. In each sector the name of the official responsible is given followed by other names, presumably his subordinates. Then, groups of men follow who are described usually by an ethnic name or by reference to their native town. At intervals we have an entry saying: 'and with them the Follower So-and-so' (Chadwick 1994: 176). Chadwick thought that the Followers functioned as liason officers. Based on evidence from other Pylian tablets that mention chariot wheels of 'Follower type', he then surmises that Followers had chariots. Therefore, these Followers would have been able to receive reports from the various units and send their charioteers as despatch-riders to take messages back to the palace. However, this is highly hypothetical as there's no archaeological or any other sort of evidence to support that. In addition, there's an another issue; that of the irregular distribution of the Followers. We have sectors with three Followers and at the same time we have Followers that had to cover up to three sectors.

Although it's very tempting to reconstruct the whole military organisation of the Pylian kingdom based on these tablets, I think that it's not very safe to do so.

References
Chadwick, J. 1994. The Mycenaean World (8th ed.), Cambridge.
Hooker, J.T. 1980. Linear B: An Introduction, Bristol.

[Mithras]

Thank you both!

Matt, I have poured over your reconstructions as you know. In a part it has made me question how well a book that tries to explain the Mycenaean Age to a non-specialist audience might fare. Did soldiers wear armour? Are those soldiers wearing armour? These unanswered questions are much rarer in the classical age and early Roman period where textual and pictorial evidence is so much more prevelant.

If we don't know that ... what else don't we know.

But lots of caution will not do me any harm!!

[Ioannis]

The Pylos tablets have shown a variety of unit types.

The economy and the social complexity of B.A. was better than the classical period.

Because of Homer Trojan war dominates but that war was just one campaign
in a titanic conflict that ravaged and dismantled the Aegean and Hittite empire and decimated Egypt.

Kind regards

The Pylos tablets do not show a variety of unit types. See my post above.

Stefane, what do you mean by saying that the economy and the social complexity of the LBA was better than the classical period? Do you mean more complex, more hierarchical or what?

The Trojan War is higly problematic. First of all, was there a Trojan War? Do we speak of a single event of a great magninute or a series of smaller plundering operations throughout time? Secondly, and if we accept that there was such a war, when did it happen? During the LBA, the Early Iron Age, or the 8th century BCE? Personally, I believe that the Homeric epics represent an Early Iron Age society mixed with older, LBA traditions and contemporary 8th century elements. I think that trying to reconstruct Mycenaean warfare based on the evidence from the Homeric poems is simply wrong.

[hoplite14gr]

Paul ,

I will partly dissagree with Ioannis because my friend G. Iliopoulos based on the lates finds did extensive work ans proved the complexity of the Pylian army.

B.A armies have 2 service branches. Chariotry and infantry.
I go under the asumption that you can more easily renact infantry.

Starting with psiloi:
Archers, slingers,javelineeers with almost no armor.
Most probably recruited from hillmen herders.
Elite archers wear boar tusk helemt in Cretan carvings

Pelast like infantry with boar task helmets javelins daggers/shortswords and some probable leather protection according to Tyrins freskoes.

Pike blocks with boartusk helmets and large square or 8-shaped shields
They hold the pike with both arms and some blades are big as later medieval polearms.

Elite close combat infantry with bronze helmets cuirass armed with javelins/spears and swords. Debated if they fought like classical phalanx or roman maniple. Thought to be "Bodyguard" unit.

Dismounted chariot crews with exrta heavy armor and aperence like nedieval knights in bronze. The later Archaic extra heavy hoplites might derive from them.

Most shields are leather but bronze examples survive.
Linothorax was known and used - 15 layres according to Thebes arsenal.

"Warrior Priests" with double bladed axes appear in Militos Bronze age carvings. Very exotic but not unlikelý

North Greeks and Thrakians organized as ferocious warbands.
Probably Dorian Mercenaries that base on the legend of Herkules and Homeric poems we can asume that they wore animal pelts over their armor

As for shield designs and heraldry I am still investigating it.
Hope it helps


Ioannis,
The tablets show that the live stock in B.A. Greece was more than in classical period. After 1300 B.C the Mycenean/Minonas vericalized their production and base their economy on olive oil, refined pottery and even more refined textile exports. They kept quiet because they were making more money with trade than plunder.
The Hititite attempt to close the asiatic ports provoked a retaliation and both empires battered themselves to exaustion.
The Greeks cleared first Aegean islands from Hitie influence and then recovered Cyprus and pressed their advantage in Militos (Milawantta)
Large fleets raided the Black Sea and Middle Eastern coasts.
The stuggled brough the colapse of the palace culture and the mercenaries sized their chance. Hence we have Dorans in mainland and Sea Peaples in Eastern Mediteranean.
Homer is indication and poetic recite not evidence. The excavations of the last 10 years gave more evidence.
American journal of Archeology had an article on the Hittite trade embargo on the Acheans

Kind regards

[Ioannis]

Stefane, is there a way of obtaining copies of the work by your firend? Has he published it anywhere?

By the way, some of your reconstructed units are based on Shaft Grave and Cretan evidence. However, such evidence is not strictly Mycenaean (both geographically and chronologically speaking).

Cheers!

[hoplite14gr]

Ioannis,
Pylian coast guard was published in the ISTORIKES SELIDES magazine in the Aufust 2006. His extensive treatment of the Bronze age Warrior fraternites was in the Lykaones Magazine over several issues.
Yes, pikes also existed in the Sumerians and almost every nationality/culture had psiloi and warbands.
I speak of Myceneans in the broad period context.
I will use the Term B.A Greeks from now on.

Kind regards

[Ioannis]

Ioannis,
The tablets show that the live stock in B.A. Greece was more than in classical period. After 1300 B.C the Mycenean/Minonas vericalized their production and base their economy on olive oil, refined pottery and even more refined textile exports. They kept quiet because they were making more money with trade than plunder.

I didn't know that we could calcualate the amount of livestock in the whole Classical period! Any references for that?

Although you're right saying that the Mycenaeans based their economy in such refined products such as olive oil and textiles (even before 1300 BCE), we cannot say that they were not involved in plundering. Plundering is not only external (i.e. taking place abroad) but also internal between neighbouring communities.

The Hititite attempt to close the asiatic ports provoked a retaliation and both empires battered themselves to exaustion.
The Greeks cleared first Aegean islands from Hitie influence and then recovered Cyprus and pressed their advantage in Militos (Milawantta)
Large fleets raided the Black Sea and Middle Eastern coasts.
The stuggled brough the colapse of the palace culture and the mercenaries sized their chance. Hence we have Dorans in mainland and Sea Peaples in Eastern Mediteranean.

This reconstruction is highly hypothetical and is based in various preassumptions like the equation of Ahiyava with Mycenaeans. Moreover, the Mycenaeans didn't clear the Aegean islands from Hittite influence cause such an influence wasn't there. In cases where we have newly established Mycenaean presence on an island is usually in areas where there was a previous Minoan presence (i.e. Trianda on Rhodes). By the way, the Mycenaean expansion into the Aegean took place in the LH IIIB period (see Georganas, I. 2000. The Mycenaean Expansion into the Aegean and the Coast of Asia Minor ca. 1400-1200 BC [in Greek]), Corpus 13: 20-25). Cyprus became Mycenaeanised much later and after the collapse of the palaces.

As far as the Dorians is concerned, this is the biggest mythos in Greek prehistory. We have no archaeological evidence whatsoever of an intruding tribes(s) from the North occupying sites on mainland Greece.

[Mithras]

It wasn't my intention to inadvertently start an argument on this forum, if I have it is by accident!

I have done alot of reading on Mycenaean archaeology (indeed it was one of my university subjects), but alot of that reading is now 10 years old and in need of an update.

Forgive my hesitation at entering this debate, though I do hold my own views!

[Ioannis]

Paul,

that's not an argument! It's only natural for each of us to have different ideas. Good results come only from good debates.

[hoplite14gr]

Ioannis I agree with you on the Doreans.
BA tablets mention DYMAN as community leader. It is interesting that one of the 3 Doric clans is called DYMANES. Also when I say mercenaries I do not imply foreign mercenaries. Most likely the "Doreans" took advntage of the fact most troops were overseas. Also compared to Mycenae the supposed origin of the Doreans, Central Greece is north of Pelloponisos :lol: Well I have my origins there and pride my self for my Doric roots.

Agree 90% on the Aegean islands. I should have mentioned that either by diplomacy of military threat they stoped short island rulers of Lesvos and Tenedos to be very close to Hittites.

Like all societies Myceneans sterted rough (i.e. very warlike).
They were simply smart enough to see that trade leaves more money than plunder. Hence they engaged in a huge war effort only when the basis of their well being was compromised.
Except oil they seemed to have a lucrative bussines of fine pottery of superior quality.

Minoans were established in Cypros(Alasyia/Aloessa). They faced trouble with the Hittetes who gave them a hard time and Greek influence again got the better with aid of the Achean allies. Egyptian texts talk of Tjierker(Tefkidae?). Interesting to note that Homeric Tefkros is colonist in Cypros. (OK this is indication.)

I need to go to the books to give you info in BA economic stats

No worries Paul we are just presenting our opinins and refernces here with Ioannis. Still you didn´t tell us what you think of the units details that I presented.

Kind regards :lol:

[Anonymous]

Here's my first reconstruction of these guys:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/WVase1.jpg

You have done amazing stuff, Matt, well done!

[Matthew Amt]

Well, I'm learning a lot!! Thanks everyone for posting. Ioannis, I definitely see what you mean about the organization mentioned in the Pylos tablets. I'd still be inclined to assume that it was basically a *military* structure, since the whole society was headed by a military aristocracy. But yes, any conclusions beyond that are less than solid. Fascinating....

One thing I'm leery of is dismissing Homer entirely as a reference. I do NOT advise taking him literally, mind you! As I said, he's a storyteller, not a modern historian. But to discard the major literary work about the era as completely "wrong" seems like an odd approach, to me. We know he was right about a lot of things.

To get back to the nuts and bolts discussion, I'll take a few friendly jabs at Stefanos' reconstructed organization.

Archers, slingers,javelineeers with almost no armor.
Most probably recruited from hillmen herders.

Fair enough, though I'd caution against wording that implies these light infantry were inexperienced spear-fodder shepherds. They could have been simple common lower-class warriors whose "day job" was herding (the goatherd who fought alongside Odysseus against the suitors was clearly an experienced fighter!), or they were herders who had some training and organization as part of some "feudal" arrangement with the aristocracy. Or they could have been mercenaries, in which case I'd have to assume they weren't shepherds any more.

Pelast like infantry with boar task helmets javelins daggers/shortswords and some probable leather protection according to Tyrins freskoes.

Boar tusk helmets imply a warrior class, to me, if not necessarily the upper crust. I'd also be careful about implying leather protection--there are many other ways to interpret those frescoes! If you mean those kilts made of dark triangular flaps, I'd really say they couldn't be very protective even if they were metal! Too much open space.

Pike blocks with boartusk helmets and large square or 8-shaped shields

No problem, I agree these were probably a basic unit, but as I mentioned earlier, things like the large body shields and boar tusk helmets seem to be out of date by the Trojan War era. SEEM to be... Of course, there would still be a basic battle line of men with spears and shields, after the older equipment is gone, so I'm not disagreeing with the organization!

Elite close combat infantry with bronze helmets cuirass armed with javelins/spears and swords. Debated if they fought like classical phalanx or roman maniple.

Right, these are your warrior noblemen, the "heroes" if you will. They could fight in a phalanx or one-on-one, or whatever in between.

Thought to be "Bodyguard" unit.

Interesting, why consider them bodyguards? Guarding what? Even the kings were out there in the front line. Personal retainers they could certainly be, so maybe it's just a question of terminology and definition. I won't quibble.

Dismounted chariot crews with exrta heavy armor and aperence like nedieval knights in bronze. The later Archaic extra heavy hoplites might derive from them.

Earlier charioteers were archers, but I'd agree that they seem more like "mechanized infantry" by the Trojan War. I don't see any reason to assume they are more heavily armored, though, except for the obvious progression of most armored guys at the top of the heap down to the unarmored masses. The guys with the chariots could afford the most and the best armor, is what I mean, though I don't believe they functioned on foot any differently from the rest of the heavy infantry, necessarily. And yes, the warrior aristocracy is essentially the same in the Archaic as in the Bronze Age--it's the equipment and tactics that change.

Most shields are leather but bronze examples survive.

Making sure that "leather" can also mean "rawhide", agreed.

Linothorax was known and used - 15 layres according to Thebes arsenal.

Right, and quilted linen tunics seem to be shown on the frescoes, too.

If we don't know that ... what else don't we know.

That's the Big Scary Question, for sure!

Do I talk too much? Khairete,

Matthew