Pteruges

[Theodosius the Great]

FAVENTIANVS,

Great!

Thanx Theo!

Does that mean I got it right :? lol: I just drew that picture myself :oops:

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

SALVE

You can find a pattern at the centurio's corner of LEGIO XXIV (MEDIA ATLANTIA)

http://www.legionxxiv.org/centurionpage ... on_008.jpg

[Theodosius the Great]

Thanks, Lucius.

The centurion's subarmalis is very impressive overall. However, you can see that his shoulder pteruges don't quite line up horizontally as they hang over his arms. So this does mean that each one should be a different length -with the middle ones being the longest.

With that modification I think I'll follow his pattern but I'll do at least three layers per shoulder with 6 to 8 pteruges per layer.

Travis,

Did individual pteruges always overlap each other ? I know they do in the Prima statue but was that the norm, exception or a 50/50 thing ?

Maybe it depends on the time period :?:

Theo

[Antonius Lucretius]

[url:j0jcudzr]http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/parts.htm#pteruges[/url]

An impressive work on the muscled cuirass and its mysteries by Travis Lee Clark. Besides the pteryges, the rest of the essay is great read. There is a rare wealth of informations there. I totally concur with Travis' conclusions on pteryges and "tongue" pteryges.

[tlclark]

Travis,

Did individual pteruges always overlap each other ? I know they do in the Prima statue but was that the norm, exception or a 50/50 thing ?

Maybe it depends on the time period :?:

Theo

Anything after the Antonine period is really iffy, but looking at pteruges on loricata from before that time, they look really dense. On most of the shoulder pteruges there are so many that I can't figure out how they were fit in, unless they overlapped in each layer. Each row seems to cover the pteruges next to it by an overlap of anywhere from 10-50%. Then the next rown would be the same.

It's quite common on shoulder pteruges to have each layer overlap the pteruges in the same layer. Haven't yet figured out if this is a design feature or an "artifact". By artifact I mean that the pteruges might be laid side by side parallel, and the armhole cinches them up so much they look like a fanfold. Or they might actually be sewn overlapping. It's very hard to tell.

On the kilts, it's much less dicey. Some show overlapping in the first row, but on most, the pteruges are laid in parallel rows with the overlapping created not in the first row, but by adjacent rows.

One thing that perplexes me is the character of the pteruges. I really can't get a handle on what they were made off. The pteruges look like they were run through a washing maching then rumpled into a ball to dry. They have lots of twists, wrinkles and odd features. Just can't figure it out. They look VERY stiff however. and with four or five overlapping layers, on average 40-60 per row, they must have held back more than just a glancing blow.

Whether they were cut from the same piece of material, or sewn together , I can't tell, since all of those details are hidden by the cuirass. but they are always edged, and many have cross-hatch patterns. I have a slide of this, and I am working on getting it up, I just happen to be in Egypt right now, so I am a little busy. I think the cross-hatch might represent a linen covering, so either a linen core with a laminate linen covering, or a linen laminate core with a leather covering are possible.

I need to look at some more in person. Wish I had done more study of the pteruges when I was in Rome!

[tlclark]

[url:5e05lhqd]http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica/parts.htm#pteruges[/url]

An impressive work on the muscled cuirass and its mysteries by Travis Lee Clark. Besides the pteryges, the rest of the essay is great read. There is a rare wealth of informations there. I totally concur with Travis' conclusions on pteryges and "tongue" pteryges.

Thank you!!

It's great to be appreciated.

More details on the pteruges are coming, I promise, I just have to wait until I get back home.

Totally off topic here, but tomorrow I've been granted access to the closed Coptic Museum here in Cairo. Photographs are not allowed, but there are many textiles, mostly late period.

I will try to take good notes and post them.

Thanks for the support!

[aitor iriarte]

Please, Travis! Try to get pics from the Spangenhelm out of its showcase, preferably from the back side and from the inside and details of the hinges, and rings at the apex and inside the cheek-pieces!!!
The late textiles I saw there weren't much impressing, notwithstanding... :?

Thanks,

Aitor

PS: Oh, how stupid! :oops: I didn't realize that 'photographs are not allowed'...

[Theodosius the Great]

pteruges might be laid side by side parallel, and the armhole cinches them up so much they look like a fanfold. Or they might actually be sewn overlapping. It's very hard to tell.

This subject is murkier than I thought.

Oh well..that just leaves more room for individual preferences :wink:

Thank you.

I've been granted access to the closed Coptic Museum here in Cairo. Photographs are not allowed, but there are many textiles, mostly late period.

Cool 8) I have that "Roman Heritage" book on those Egyptian textiles.

[tlclark]

Totally off topic: Update on the Coptic Museum.

Well I was under the impression that the museum was all but finished since they open in two weeks, but there are concrete mixers and scaffolding in the front room, so it's a wreck. The only thing not locked up and off-site were the niches from Sakarra.

Unbelievably neat stuff. So not a total loss.

Sorry Aitor, no Spangenhelm.

Is there anything worth seeing in the Alexandrian Greco-Roman museum
(I mean from a RAT perspective)

Travis

[aitor iriarte]

Thanks anyway, Travis!
Did you notice that fantastic late Roman fortifications near the Museum?
I haven't been at Alexandria, sorry!

Aitor

[Tarbicus]

( Whoops - gone, except the really interesting picture )

And these pteruges are a pretty nice example of their use in modern day sports (for reference) tennis pteruges

[Caballo]

In a site pointed out by Tarbicus (thanks ) was this carving. Looks like a subarmalis with four (!) layers of pteruges.....
Any thoughts?
http://project.klascement.net/kt/beelden/420_031.gif

[Caballo]

Re the crumpled pteruges- thought these pics were worth comparing. The crumpling effect of the shoulder pteruges and the thigh pteruges look similar.

Given that the ESG centurio may well have had these pteruges for several years ( ), , aged leather pteruges may well account for the effect?
http://shw.fotopages.com/8474198.html


http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... sdet5a.jpg

[tlclark]

Thanks anyway, Travis!
Did you notice that fantastic late Roman fortifications near the Museum?
I haven't been at Alexandria, sorry!

Aitor

You mean these?

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... G_3390.jpg
http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... G_3391.jpg

Great stuff huh. The late Roman engineering is just amazing.

The SCA is kinda ham-fisted when doing reconstructions, so a lot of this is new cladding, but still cool.

And here is the Justinianic fortifications from St. Catherine's.

http://astro.temple.edu/~tlclark/lorica ... G_3030.jpg


The large granite blocks are the original 6th C. work[/img]

[tlclark]

Ooops.

Not trying to slam the Society for Creative Anachronism,

I just realized it had the same acronym as the Egyptian Supreme Council of Antiquities.

Sorry for any confusion.

Also Paulus Britannicus.

Can't get the one link to work.

I don't know if leather would react that way over time to wear and tear. It's very puzzling. but a lot of the loricata show this 'crumpled' detail. I figure it has to represent what we are actually seeing in the armor, since I can't think of a stylistic reason to include it.

How does laminate linen react to repeated folding/creasing? Any guesses? Experience?

As far as four layers of pteruges that's in keeping with what I am seeing on the statuary.

Travis