scutum edging

[Anonymous]

the shape of the shield. The shield in the illustration appears to be a simple ellipse or oval lacking compound curvature. I tried a similar technique on my rectangular curved scutum and wound up with a mess of kinked brass. I had well annealed the brass before attempting the bend. The BIG issue with the classic rectangular scutum is getting around the corners, you have to curve around the top and then make a 90 degree bend. <p></p><i></i>

[Matt Lukes]

My suggestion is to dispense with the tubing altogether. I'm no expert armorer, nor am I a complete novice either, but I've just tried to make my first brass Scutum edge from 0.015" sheet brass, and it's easy as can be.<br>
<br>
Cut a length a little longer than you need for a corner, anneal it as you've been doing (heat to cherry red and quench in water), draw out the pattern, bend it as if you were making a straight piece (i.e., into a 'U'), cut the pattern out, and just bend the cuve gently while hammering out the kinks. It worked brilliantly for me. I did re-anneal the pieces a couple of times during the bending, just to be safe. My edging isn't the widest either- only 5mm, and that probably made it easier, but I would think that it would still be no problem with a thicker one. It's also more 'authentic'- I doubt there were too many Roman armorers using brass tubing<br>
<br>
Matt <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave,<br>
<br>
Very cool, I'll try that method. I think we'd all like to see a picture of your results. It sounds way to easy to be true<br>
<br>
Vale, Quintus Florentius<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

I still think that the shape of the scutum will influence the degree of success achievable. I tried the fashion the edging from brass sheet rather than tube on my rectangular scutum and wound up with a twisted mess. I thought I had well annealed the brass. The difficulty with the curved rectangular scutum is the almost 90 degree bend required at the corners. You need to curve around the top and then bend 90 degrees. It's hard to that without kinking the brass. <p></p><i></i>

[richsc]

That sort of begs the question, was Roman edging cut from a tube or bent from a flat sheet? I suspect bent from a flat sheet, as who would go to all the trouble to make a brass tube in those days then cut it up!<br>
<br>
The only actual stuff I've seen is that example in the British Museum, and to be honest, I wasn't thinking of that angle (hahaha).<br>
So, was original Roman edging beat from a flat sheet or not? <p>Legio XX<br>
Caput dolet, pedes fetent, Iesum non amo<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>

[scythius]

RichSC asked:<br>
<br>
Quote:</em></strong><hr>So, was original Roman edging beat from a flat sheet or not? <hr><br>
<br>
From a flat sheet, almost certainly - the use of copper tubing to make shield edging is a reenactorism - trying to find an easier way to get 'The Look'.<br>
<br>
It has been my experience that doing the conversion with the tubing is more trouble than just doing it the <em>right</em> way with a hammer, a chisel, flat metal stock, and a good heat source.<br>
<br>
Bending tubing is something that has come up several times in our workshop when we built our first two prototype cornu (which, by the way, <strong>SOUND</strong> wonderful, but look like feces...).<br>
<br>
<p>Scythius<br>
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB<br>
<br>
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS - </p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Please post a picture! <p></p><i></i>

[scythius]

Neuralmancer wrote:Quote:</em></strong><hr>Please post a picture! <hr><br>
<br>
Nice try<br>
<br>
How about a sound file instead?....<br>
<p>Scythius<br>
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB<br>
<br>
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS - </p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

What, too embarrassing? Ok, post a sound file. If the cornu sounds good then everyone will want to see your [insert unmentionable word here]. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Yes! A sound file!<br>
The restive roman crowd is clamoring for it..<br>
How does it sound like? A hunting horn?<br>
A demonstration of several cornu (cornae?? cornii?? corna??) playing together should make a very good impression on unsuspecting civilians, next april 21st in Rome..<br>
I recently heard a demo of a carnyx played by a british reenactor/musician whose name I don't remember but he's quite well known.<br>
The instrument is fitted with a metal tongue and the sound it produces is definitely weird, looking somewhat like a stag's belling.<br>
According to specialists in prehistoric societies, the stag has been considered a sacred animal ever since times immemorial.<br>
The important gallic god Cernumnos is crowned with stag's antlers and painting of chamans disguised as stags were found in neolithic caves.<br>
...But anyways... Music! <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=antoninuslucretius@romanarmytalk>Antoninus Lucretius</A> <IMG HEIGHT=10 WIDTH=10 SRC="http://lucretius.homestead.com/files/Cesar_triste.jpg" BORDER=0> at: 7/1/04 12:25 pm<br></i>

[Matt Lukes]

Ave Quintus Florentius,<br>
<br>
It was quite easy- and I guarantee you not too good to be true. I've taken photos of the process, but can't get them off my digital camera just yet (I have to upgrade my computer). It's so effective with 0.015" annealed brass, that I was actually able to completely reverse the curve on the section for the top of my Scutum. I was happier with the appearance of the tabs on what ended up being the back (the inside of the curve), that I re-annealed it and bent it the other way. I made my edge from 4 long pieces (straight for the sides and laterally curved for the top and bottom) and 4 short longitudinally-curved pieces for the corners. The corners of my Scutum are 1/4 of a 5" diameter circle, so not a sharp curve at all- it looks pretty-much like all those I've seen on various Legio websites. I annealed the brass, bent it into the U, annealed it again then gently started curving. I actually introduced small ripples in the sides with my fingers, and held one end while pulling down on the other. As the kinks increased, I'd tap them down with a light hammer. I found that because the wood is soft, it's better to have the kinks projecting out than in. You can't flatten inward ones because they just dig into the wood. I also used pliars from time to time to simply squeeze the kinks flat.<br>
<br>
Vale,<br>
<br>
Matt <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Avete,<br>
<br>
Matt L-<br>
Allright, I'm gonna try it. It sounds awesome, and feasible. Thanks for giving the lowdown. I am really looking forward to seeing some pics, so when you get the digital camera downloaded, please let 'em loose....<br>
<br>
Scythius-<br>
I'm with Neur., I don't care how ugly it is, it's so cool that you guys are even making them, I wanna see! We all undertstand the prototype phase, and we all know that you guys will master the construction of them and start to make beautiful looking as well as sounding ones. So please, give us a sound byte, and at least a blurry picture...<br>
<br>
It is very inspiring to me to hear of/see guys figuring out how make new things, make better things, and expand our world.<br>
<br>
Valete, and thanks, Quintus Florentius<br>
LEGVIVICPF<br>
www.florentius.com <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave,<br>
<br>
Awright, had a legion fabricum today, and now believe it possible to make brass scutum edging. Like Matt says, it's pretty easy. I did several test corners, all basically successful. Pics are linked. Matt, I'm very anxious to see your photos of exactly how you did it.<br>
<br>
First is a stake built by our Centurio Gaius. It is of 1/4 inch steel, and mirrors the curve/ corner of the scutum exactly. Make sure yours is as thick as the finished scutum, including any layers of leather or linen. We'll probably thicken this one up a bit.<br>
<br>
img70.photobucket.com/alb...01wewb.jpg<br>
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/scutum_edging_001wewb.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Next is a dolly, welded up from 1/4 steel as well. I made edging with and without this piece. It is stimple and easy to make, but I felt I had the same degree of success without it.<br>
<br>
http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v21 ... 002web.jpg
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/scutum_edging_002web.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
Third are three corners I made. I like the longer radius without the lobate tabs so close best. The one to the right is the first I made. This was done with the dolly. The middle one, I used the dolly a bit, then just a hammer. The one to the left was done only with the stake and a hammer.<br>
<br>
http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v21 ... 003web.jpg
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/scutum_edging_003web.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
<br>
I'm hoping to get back into the shop shortly to do an actual scutum.<br>
<br>
How to: (First of all, when I do the full scutum I will photo it and put a step by step on my website.)<br>
Starting with sheet brass, I cut it to a 2 1/4 inch wide strip. Makeb a line 1/2 inch in from each edge. Mark the point of the lobate tabs. I suggest making a stencil so they will be essentially the same and trace them out using the mark as the center. Using tin snips, cut in at each tab, and cut along the "1/2 inch line" between each tab. This will leave you with a strip 1 1/4 inch wide with tabs sticking off 1/2 inch at regular intervals. You could smooth the edges and curve the tabs out nicely now, or later. Make a line down the center of the strip, and using the stake carefully fold the strip in half to the thickness of the scutum. Select the corner section, and using a torch heat it red hot and quench it. I did this two times per curve. Place the stake in a vise and clamp one end of the curve section to the appropriate spot on the stake. Then you just bend it and keep tapping in the kinks with a hammer. The super annealed brass is very responsive to compression and it is possible to gently beat this thing into shape pretty quickly. I re-annealed about halfway through. If you start to get a fold over kink, just straighten the curve back out a little, and work it in. In the long run I found it easier to get the shape with just a hammer and not the dolly, although the dolly is nice for flattening and smoothing. I imagine you could use wood for a stake, but you would probably need to make a new one for each corner.<br>
<br>
As with everything, I'll keep you abreast of any new info.<br>
<br>
Vale, Quintus Florentius<br>
LEGVIVICPF<br>
www.florentius.com <br>
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/tabulimgif.gif" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jaredfleury>jaredfleury</A> at: 7/4/04 5:30 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

So you simply bent/hammered the annealed brass around the stake? It's difficult to tell from your photo, but does the stake curve around the top of the scutum as well as fitting around the corner? It's this compound curve that gave me the most difficulty. It looks like the doly is intended to fit around the brass to form the shape. Which do you think is preferrable use of the doly or hammering? <p></p><i></i>

[Matt Lukes]

Actually, my corners look very similar to the first one in the picture Quintus posted. The real proof that the annealed brass is beautifully soft and easily workable is the fact that I actualy used the same 3-layered plywood that the Scutum itself is made from as a form, not steel and it worked just fine. A steel form would probably make the whole process even quicker and easier.<br>
<br>
As usual, I've learned from this first try and am considering making a slightly wider rim with larger lobes and figured I'd use a suqare steel form (the width of Scutum and fabric covering) for the curves and edges. I do have to say the small ripples and dents in the brass from working on soft wood does make it look nicely 'authentic'.<br>
<br>
Matt <p></p><i></i>