scutum edging - Printable Version

scutum edging - Printable Version

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scutum edging - Anonymous - 05-30-2004

Ave, 
 
I'm having a problem edging a shield. I've looked over XX's site, and no matter what I try I kink the pipe. I went to the store three times today to buy different stuff. I've got sand, a 1/8-1/2 thin wall pipe bender- "360 degrees fast, easy without kinking", 2 springs, inside and out side, annealing stuff etc. etc. Well that's actually all I have. I've ruined several K&S 1/2" tubes, and not gotten more than about a 2 degree bend without a kink . I know there's an answer because I see all your darn scutum out there with brass edging and I know they're not all depeeka... 
 
Somebody please help me! I can't afford to keep on buying brass.... There's something vital that I'm missing. A brain? 
 
Vale, Quintus Florentius 
www.florentius.com Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jaredfleury>jaredfleury</A> at: 5/30/04 4:54 am

Ah, the mystery of bending brass tubing - Anonymous - 05-30-2004

I haven't figured it out either, gave up and used rawhide to edge my scutum. 
 
66.66.131.145/roman/scutum.html

Kinky tubes... - Matthew Amt - 05-31-2004

Ave! 
 
Kinda why I only do leather rims, these days, too! 
 
If all the kinks or ripples are along the inside of the curve, it's not a problem since much of that will be cut away anyway. You only need to leave the tabs at either end of the piece. 
 
But if you kink right through the tube, yeah, curtains... 
 
I'll have to check my page and make sure it's emphasized enough, but to anneal the brass you should heat it red-hot and QUENCH it in water immediately. That will give you the best results. 
 
Sorry, with I could tell you more! Vale, 
 
Matthew/Quintus

Re: Kinky tubes... - Anonymous - 05-31-2004

Ave, 
 
Thanks for the advice, and commiseration. I used to be like "nah, I'm definetly doing brass, I'd never do rawhide". 
I gotta say, that rawhide's looking better these days. 
 
Mind you, I'm not giving up yet. Thus far my kinks have been brass destroying. I really thought that spring inside would solve it. No dice. I'll try a bit more. 
 
By the way, Neuralmancer, nice scutum, and nice cover. Good work! 
 
Vale, Quintus Florentius 
www.florentius.com

Re: Kinky tubes... - Anonymous - 05-31-2004

Jared, 
 
Rawhide certainly was a lot easier. I ended up trying dog chew bones that I soaked in the tub and peeled apart. Once they were moldable, I put them on the shield, used a staple gun to tack them on, then once dry, sewed it. After that, I rubbed beeswax on it to seal it a bit. Turned out well. Magnus/Matt 
Legio XXX "Ulpia Victrix" 
Niagara Falls, Canada

Re: Kinky tubes... - Crispvs - 06-07-2004

Some of the edging i have seen in museums looks to me as if it may have been cast. Does this help? 
 
Crispvs

Re: Kinky tubes... - Anonymous - 06-07-2004

yeah! 
 
If you could have cast corners and just deal with the long sections in sheet brass, that would make it easier. I've examined several deepeeka scutum corners, they are formed from sheet, and have a very low level of wrinkle, but they are not machine perfect. I bet they have some sort of machine die press though that slams them out. I have closely examined my Peterson book, and all edges in there appear to be sheet metal, some really smooth, some with a little more character, but all way better than my experiments. Someone told me at some point that the real ones wherea top and bottom edge with the curve included, and just a straight vertical side piece. Casting is an interesting idea indeed... 
Vale,Quintus Florentius 
LEGVIVICPF 
www.florentius.com 
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/tabulimgif.gif" style="border:0;"/>

Re: Kinky tubes... - Hibernicus - 06-07-2004

Well. if you're going to use tubes you MUST anneal them first. 
Make sure you have enough cool water in a large enough container to totally immerse the tube so that it anneals evenly and well. 
 
Packing the tube with sand... not just pouring it in but packing it! Use a fine grain sand.. it packs tighter.. pour a small amount in the tube then pack.. repeat ad infinitum! 
 
Bending.. use a pipe bender or build a bending jig. 
 
It's also easier to bend the tube if its longer than you need... the extra leverage allows you to bend it slower and more gradually. Bend a little bit in one spot then move on an inch... repeat until you have achieved the desired curve. 
 
Or if you're brave you can bend it hot... the sand will hold the heat allowing you a bit more time to work the tube. 
 
Kinking.. if you bend it slowly the kinking will be spread out and minimal. 
 
There is a power tool that looks like a drill with a scissors attachment.. a power shear that cuts out a 1/4" side slit. Or use an angle grinder with a thin metal cutting disc. A 4.5" or larger is better... Remove the sand before cutting the slot. 
 
Hibernicus

Re: Kinky tubes... - Anonymous - 06-08-2004

Ave Hibernicus, 
 
Thanks for the suggestions. I am really a metal working newbie, and each post gives me a piece in the puzzle. 
 
I thought I was giving them a good annealing, but maybe inadaquate. I know I did not PACK the sand in, I just filled it, and it's not playground sand so it's not that fine. I guess the spring thing is not really the ticket for this. Or maybe the spring and the sand? No, I guess you couldn't really pack it then. As far as bending it hot, do you do it red hot? 
 
I'm just confused in general, because brass is ass backwards- but you can heat it and work it hot? And just keep reheating, sand in place, and not quenching? I've got what purports to be the perfect kink free pipe bender, which don't work, and I even tried it on the big boys version in a metal shop. I'll go back with increased knowledge. 
 
Is copper much easier for this kind of work? What if I made the corners out of copper, and plated them brass? 
 
The truth is out there... 
 
Valete, Quintus Florentius 
LEGVIVICPF 
www.florentius.com 
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/tabulimgif.gif" style="border:0;"/>

Re: Kinky tubes... - Gashford - 06-08-2004

Hello all 
 
I watched a professional master armourer make a shield edge corner, it tool him about 30 seconds, I have since tried to recreate this but have had no luck yet, but I figure I could make a strigel now quite easily 
 
So much armouring can be difficult for us, but as most blacksmith/armourer apprenticeships started as children from the age of about 6/7 and ended some 10 to 15 years later after becomming a journeyman and returning home and avoiding the draft! I suspect that this sort of work would have also taken the armourers of the day seconds as well. 
 
For those interested the armourer used nothing but a hammer! I could have cried, how many times I have tried since on bits of metal and failed I won't go into! 
 
Keep trying, one day you will do it and then become a millionaire! Graham Ashford
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annealing copper based metals is opposite of ferrous metals - Anonymous - 06-08-2004

I'm a bit of a metal working newbie as well, there's always something more to learn. It is my understanding that brass must not be worked hot, heat it followed by a quick quenching.

Re: annealing copper based metals is opposite of ferrous met - Gashford - 06-08-2004

In my meagre experience with metals brass is worked cold. Heat it cherry red, wait for a count of about 5-10 then quench and work until it work hardens, when you repeat the process through. Graham Ashford
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Re: Kinky tubes... - scythius - 06-08-2004

Quote:<hr>I know I did not PACK the sand in, I just filled it, and it's not playground sand so it's not that fine. I guess the spring thing is not really the ticket for this. Or maybe the spring and the sand? <hr> 
 
You have to really pack the sand in HARD - we have a 5 gallon bucket of sand that we've ground extra fine (with a mortar and pestle - great job for new guys...). 
 
Here's my tips for doing the corner: 
 
Make the piece *at least* 4 inches longer than needed. 
 
Anneal the tube. 
 
Use metal end caps - what we do is use strapping tape (the 
tape with fibreglass strips) to tape the cap on SECURELY. Fill the tube with sand - using a small wooden dowel and a mallet to pack the sand down FIRMLY. 
 
Tape the other cap on - once this is done, try shaking the tube - if you can hear the sand moving, you've screwed it up - take one of the caps off and add more sand... 
 
Bend the tube, using whatever tool(s) you deem necessary - we've tried everything from hickeys (electrical conduit bending tools) to the edge of the workbench. My favorite tool for this is a limb cut from a tree in my backyard - so obviously nothing really fancy is needed... 
 
Profit! 
Scythius 
LEG IX HSPA - COH III EXPG - CEN I HIB 
 
- FIDELITAS - - VIRTUS - - MAGNANIMITAS -

Re: Kinky tubes... - Luca - 06-10-2004

anyone has a pic by pic (step by step) procedure available? 
 
Or at least the pic of the final result?

Re: Kinky tubes... - Robert Vermaat - 06-10-2004

An alternative can be found here at the site of The Vicus ([url=http://www.vicus.org.uk/documents/metaledging.htm" target="top]an article from Peronis[/url]). 
 
It may not be what you seek, but worth looking at. 
Should the link not work, go to The Vicus ([url=http://www.vicus.org.uk" target="top]www.vicus.org.uk[/url]), click resources, then Articles on kit and equipment and manufacture, then metal edging for roman shields. 
 
Valete, 
Valerius/Robert