Pouch/purse in a well

[Anonymous]

Avete Omnes,<br>
<br>
Next thing in my neverending list of "I wanna see the artifact" (or at least some (a) good picture(s):<br>
<br>
I've seen many variants of pouches for the stuff you just have put somewhere, keys, money, medicine etc. I haven't seen any pics or evidence of what they really looked like. Surely at least some soldiers carried stuff in pouches!<br>
<br>
I've read about a soldiers remains found down a well in England, with among other things, a "purse". I know he's a bit later than many of us play, but seeing a picture of the real thing would be incredibly useful. Is it out there anybody? Is there any other pouch evidence?<br>
<br>
Valete, Quintus Florentius<br>
www.florentius.com <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Excuse me if I am fancying too much, but you've mentioned a corpse, a leather pouch and a late date. Were not for the well and England, I'd dare to say that you're referring to the Deurne find, in the Netherlands. In that case, the leather 'purse' is in reality a bag for carrying a helmet inside.<br>
If I recall well, they've found some remains of leather 'drawstring' purses at Vindolanda...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave Aitor,<br>
<br>
Perhaps I've mixed stuff up a bit. What I believe I am referring to is the find at Velsen, where a possibly murdered, semi uniformed soldier was found down a well, wearing a belt with the rather inapt motto Utere Felix- Use it with luck! He supposedly had also a brooch and a pouch. Is this the same find?<br>
<br>
What would be great is a book of Roman Leather, from Vindolanda as well as anywhere else!<br>
<br>
Do you have group website?<br>
<br>
Vale, Quintus Florentius<br>
www.florentius.com <p></p><i></i>

[Robert Vermaat]

Hi Quintus,<br>
No, the Velsen find is different from the Deurne find, though both are from The Netherlands. Velsen is the coastal fort, abondoned/overrun (afaik) with the infantryman dumped in the 1st c., while Deurne is a bog find of an accident/votive offering of a 4th c. cavalryman.<br>
<br>
Valete,<br>
Valerius/Robert <p></p><i></i>

[aitor iriarte]

Quintus, forgive me but you're making a really good involuntary joke!<br>
The belt with the motto 'Utere Felix' comes from a Third century soldier grave at Lyon (France)<br>
You're mixing three different finds from three different places and three different dates!<br>
Our group website is in construction since two years ago. We've been told that it will be operative before the end of the year but I think I've already heard that before...<br>
<br>
Aitor <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=aitoririarte>Aitor Iriarte</A> at: 5/28/04 7:20 am<br></i>

[derek forrest]

Valete<br>
That was a string about this a while back and the conclusion was that there were no actual finds of the drawstring purse that you see so many members of the Guard carrying.<br>
<br>
Since then I have taken to wearing an arm purse in leather similar to the brass ones of which the several finds but no leather finds.<br>
<br>
I have not seen a drawstring at Vindolanda. The one week looked at in detail was more of a tool bag.<br>
<br>
Connelly in his "living in the time of Jesus of Nazareth" illustrates a drawstring from En Gedi with an interesting way of fastening it onto the belt.<br>
<br>
Derek <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave Derek,<br>
<br>
Here's a new slant on the question, which you may be able to answer a an ESG member. Here's a link www.esg.ndirect.co.uk/Arc...15_JPG.htm<br>
and he is wearing some sort of pouch. Is it specifically for the wax tablets, is it based on something beyond "a pouch is needed here"?<br>
<br>
Also, I'm now hoping you can provide two photos, one of your shield straps w/ seg. system, and now one of your lovely leather wrist pouch.<br>
<br>
Aitor: Yes, that would not be very lucky belt would it? OK, so I've gotten Velsen, Deurne, and Lyons all mixed up. Well, not anymore I guess- I must have been something.<br>
<br>
Thanks everybody for all your help and info, Vale, Quintus Florentius<br>
www.florentius.com <p></p><i></i>

[Crispvs]

I'm not really so sure that the Velson soldier was murdered and 'dumped' in the well. I think it is far more likely that he died during the dismantling of the fort and there was insufficient time to cremate him in the normal way. Indeed if he had been with men of Germanic origin an inhumation burial may not have been seen as abnormal (I believe that the site dates to the 30s - 40s AD but I do not know the identity of the unit stationed there). If I recall correctly the well was not an isolated feature of the site. There are a number of wells on the site, all of them filled with the same type of fill as the one in question. The soldier himself was found about halfway down the well but the fact that part of the dagger sheath and one of his boot soles were found in higher levels suggests some movement of the gravel over the 1950 or so years of burial. Rather than being 'semi uniformed' he may well have been normally clothed, being found with the remains of two boots, a military belt and dagger and two fibula type brooches, suggesting that he was wearing a tunica and cloak (possibly a sagem) and possibly a scarf in addition to his boots. A fabric waist tie and socks are also possible. It is most unlikely that soldiers would have worn their helmets or body armour when engaged in routine work around the fort. The remains of two pottery vessels in the well close to the body may have been intended as grave goods, suggesting a benevolant burial. It is of course possible that he was murdered but the fact that he was found with the remains of a very nice dagger and sheath which are rather out of keeping with his rather worn and obviously second hand belt suggests that whoever buried him did not think to rob him first.<br>
<br>
Crispvs <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave Crispus,<br>
<br>
Thank you for the info. Although there's no pouch, it's still very interesting. especially about the second hand belt and very nice dagger. Too bad so many of these items we hear cryptically about are not more photo documented, especially for the Europe deprived.<br>
<br>
Thanks again, Vale, Quintus Florentius<br>
LEGVIVICPF<br>
florentius.com<br>
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/tabulimgif.gif" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Hmm. Maybe he just fell down the well while destroying the fort, and his friends didn't have time to get him out. It might explain why such a valuable dagger was left on site instead of being pinched!<br>
<br>
Celer. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

In Leg 2 many of us are replacing our pouches with small leather wallets tucked into the waist band, summed up this is because:<br>
<br>
i) you dont see the dangly pouches even on the most detailed of grave stelae<br>
<br>
ii)you do occaisonally see a small rectangle tucked into the waist band<br>
<br>
iii) there are literary references to money belts (pouch and waist band?)<br>
<br>
iv) The excavated herculaneum soldier had coins tucked into a pouch behind his military belts, (presumably beneath his waistband?)<br>
<br>
Still hypothetical, of course, but perhaps a better alternative? <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

<br>
A small rectangular pouch was found at Vindonissa in Switzerland, (see Gannser Burckhardts report of 1942, if you can find it...) Some other interesting bags/satchels have come from Bar Hill and Kasr Ibrim, both of which I have reconstructed, i'll see if i can paste up some pics...<br>
<br>
<p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Ave Paulinus,<br>
<br>
Yes, please post pictures, and post pictures of the inside the belt system your Leg. is switching to. It sounds like a nice solution. I've put directions on RAT on the second page of the "Show here your roman soldier Impression" thread. It's just below Aitors bitchin' triple portait, and above mine. I'd really love to see what you've come up with.<br>
<br>
Vale, Quintus Florentius<br>
LEGVIVICPF<br>
www.florentius.com <br>
<img src="http://img70.photobucket.com/albums/v212/jaredfleury/tabulimgif.gif" style="border:0;"/> <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://p200.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=jaredfleury>jaredfleury</A> at: 6/6/04 11:17 pm<br></i>

[Tarbicus]

Thanks to Heiko (Cornelius Quintus) for the link to Krefeld (Gelduba).

Here's a reconstruction of a found drawstring pouch apparently:
[url:1v3fzuir]http://www.archaeologie-krefeld.de/leiste/numismatik/geldwesen.htm[/url]

However primarily what was used with everyday purchases and sales, was lost, and which one carried in the purse with itself (see illustration on the left and on the right, to reconstruction of a Roman purse, found 1952 with Bargercompascuum/NL (after K. Schlabow).

Looks like my drawstring purse is good to go.

[aitor iriarte]

Good!
Now we'd only need to trace that paper by Karl Schlabow to have full information on the purse... :?
Does somebody have any idea on which one it could be?
The purse looks much more supple than mine, which is fairly rigid. I carry it suspended from one of my belt's rings but you know that we, Late Romans, are rather weird fellows! :wink:

Aitor