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Gregg · 03-12-2004, 02:05 PM

For now, try this link. It shows the emperor Trajan on horseback, you can see the horns of his saddle plainly: 
 
cheiron.humanities.mcmast...2.31.h.jpg 
 
Gregg

Goffredo · 03-12-2004, 02:56 PM

Greatful. This is the first time i've seen the horns! and now know what to look for as they aren't that obvious to see. 
Ciao

Gregg · 03-12-2004, 03:28 PM

Yeah the horns shown on Roman saddles on Trajan's Column tend to be kind of smallish, though that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't an accurate depiction. Horned saddles seem to have come in a number of different types, if I'm interpreting the evidence correctly. You can see better depictions on the higher-quality tombstones of Roman cavalrymen, though I can't find any images of these online. 
 
Gregg

03-13-2004, 01:35 PM

Peter Connolly and Ann Hyland were able to reconstruct two patterns of the horned saddle: the small horned saddle favored by reenactors and the large horned saddle, with the horns almost wrapping around the rider's upper thights. That gave a very secure seat but was a sure way to get a dislocated hip joint or a fracture of the femur in case of wreck. 
Pictures of both saddles can be seen in Ann Hyland's "Equus", the best book I've read about horses in the Roman world. 
I suspect the large horned saddle was used by heavy cavalry, such as cataphracts. 
The question of whether there was a tree in those saddles is still there, but it is generally accepted that there was one. Morevover, we know that the horns, at least, were stiffened by metal stiffeners. 
However, I remember an anecdote (Dio Cassius?) when an officer plucks feathers out the the "little horns" of a trooper's saddle. The man had stuffed his saddle with feathers to make it more comfy. 
As for the horses, there is still that preconceived idea that the ancients rode no more than "ponys". 
A 14 hands horse is no poney. Besides, ponys and horses are two different things. 
Not to mention the vocabulary. A polo "pony" is a horse, and a damn fine one, actually. 
And the scuptures Sassanian told us about show clearly that the Persian kings did not ride poneys or small animals, but big chargers. Look at the legs and barrel chest of Shapur's horse in the famous Nasq-i-Rustam scupture where he is seen victorious over two roman emperors. That beast looks like a Clydesdale! 
BTW, Sassanian, you do own lovely horses.. 
The art of breeding horses is a very ancient one.. 
The legendary Nisean mares came from Persia, and they were so precious that wars were waged over them. 
Let's not forget either than in the span of several centuries, horse breeding techniques improved, hence the quality of horses did too with time and access to more breeds as the Empire grew. 
A cavalryman in Caesar's time did not ride the same kind of horse as an imperial trooper two centuries later.

03-16-2004, 07:16 PM

Thank you for the beautiful compliment and your info. Your definitley correct on your point. As for Roman horses, its false to believe that all rode ponies. First and foremost, Spanish horses, of much larger size were very prized in the Roman world and very sought after. However, much like today, we have a very inexpensive and common car and the highend creme de la creme cars. It is the same in the horse world today as it was thousands of years ago. 
 
For example in Persia, all horses that were born white, or whitened to a pure white, or what is considered a blue roan, were immediatley presented to the kings court for approval into is stables, if not approved, then passed down the ranks. This was a tradition that was preserved until the early part of this century in Iran. 
 
As for Shapur's horse, it is one of a few breeds in Iran, Akhal Teke or the Kurd Mountain horse or the Nisean or the Persian, which today by name is nolonger existant. There are the finer more wirey types and the more bulky heavy bread types. Much like today if you see a thoroubred, you will see some with a more arab trait and some with a more heavy european trait. I.E. and Irish thoroughbred or lets say a horse like a seabiscut. Cant think of a better example right now. My thoroughbreds are very typey and fine bread and look exactly like the Persian horses and are of the same size and confirmation. That is why I picked them. My last trip to Iran, I saw many many many of these horses. 
 
Also, one other point, pony does not just refer to a horses size, it is a specific breed type. What was thought extinct and rediscovered in the 20th century actually florishing in Iran is the Caspian pony, which is not a pony, its an actual horse. It looks like a miniature horse at only 9 hands. The elite of the Persians used these horses for chariots and for the training of their cavalry which started at the age of 5. Kids were trained on horses not ponies. 
 
As for the positioning of the horses and why they look like clysdales on Shapur and Ardeshir's carvings. That is the way a horse is trained to carry itself and a Stallion even further exaggerates the look. Now this is without getting to technical about it. But I was very classically trained in Dressage and when riding, my polo ponies, I can make them look like that. So, its not that clysdales only look like that, but many horses can be made to look like that, even heavy classical bred Arab horses that are still bred to the old world standard and not what we breed here today. 
 
So in looking at the Roman horse, first and foremost, it is extremelly important to see the region the horse served in, who it served under and for what purpose. For a cataphract of extreme armor, you need a horse that can carry that weight, but for scirmish horses, such as hit and run archers or lancers or javalaneers, you need horses of extremel endurance. When the Romans wrote of the Parthian attacks, one of the overwhelming features they endured was the duration of the attacks. When they thought the attack was over, was only an actual retreat to get another quiver of arrows, each quiver housing over 100 arrows. So one can only imagine the length of attack endured by a legionaire under his shield, and its returning waves. 
 
Finally as for the saddle, yes, your dead on. Different forms require different saddles. A heavy attack, frontally, on a Roman Phalanx will require larger horns to brace the rider for impact, while the more speedy riders such as archers, ropers, lancers need the manueverability of smaller horns. Further more, one has to take into consideration that these saddles had to be supportive enough not only for the rider but the horse. A pad such as the earlier Acheaminid Persians saddles or greek saddles is only sufficient for a soldier carrying primary weapons, but not one carrying the abundance of weapons that the Cataphracts did. Most often, it includes on the rider, sword, dagger, axe, quiver, bow and bow quiver, on the horse another quiver for spare bows, perhaps another quiver for spare arrows, large club/mace, javalins, in some cases spare sword, and sometimes the quiver of bows and arros was mounted to the saddle and not the rider. Add to this the weight of a fully armored rider, and you need the foundation of a saddle tree or it will not work. I have seen a four horned saddle that is not ridged and the horns are loose. It is absolutely useless and infact more of a bother than a help. 
 
On another note, thank you very much for the compliments on my horses. They are very special animals to me and extremely well trained. They are more like my babies than anything else. I have four, Cyrus, Darius, Roxxanna and Arrianna. I have had many others, but these are the horses in my string now. I have armored up on them, unfortunately I never took pictures, and its pretty awesome looking. Next time I will take some pictures. 
 
Oh, and to address a question up top. In Iran today, Zoroastrians are praised. In fact, many, even though illegal, consider themselves as Zoroastrians, and it is unbelievable, beyond explanation the reassurgance of the Pre-Islamic Persian Ideals and culture and it is overtly apparent. Many wear the Zoroastrian symbols out in public and proclaim it as their true heratige. 
 
And finally, in two weeks I will be going to Iran for 3 weeks. I cannot waite. 
 
Ardeshir Radpour 
Sassanian

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 03-17-2004, 08:41 AM

My compliments Sassanian, I can't wait to see the pictures, it should be great to see you there while charging as a cataphract, at a gallop and in a not "modern" background. What country do you live? 
 
Vale, 
Titus

03-17-2004, 06:09 PM

Thank you for the wonderful compliments. I live in the Los Angeles area.

Daniel S Peterson · 03-17-2004, 08:06 PM

Sassannian, 
At the big IWA trade fair I just returned from in Nurenburg, Deepeeka took an order for five saddles so we are definately going to proceed with them now. I will keep people informed as to their development. 
 
The earliest "true" reconstruction of a four horned Roman saddle I know of was the one I made in 1985 for the exhibit our Leg XIIII did for the 2000th anniversary of Augsburg in conjuntion with Junkelmann's arrival over the alps. I believe this was before any of the Hyland and Connolly reconstructions, and was what inspired Marcus to do the Roman cavlary experiments. It was basically a thick felt pad cut to fit the valkenburg leather, with bronze horns. We dressed a local guy (who had a horse) as a cavalryman, and he was very impressed with how well the saddle worked. In defense of this treeless saddle reconstruction, it should be noted that Roman bronze horn stiffeners only have holes for stitching into the leather, and not holes to be nailed into a tree. Also, this pad type saddle will fit any horse and adjust to the horses back as it becomes leaner on campaign. 
 
I do have a Roman saddle with a tree as well, as can be seen in the Junkelmann cavalry books. it is based on the classic Carmargue saddle tree. I believe both are possible, the tree saddle for heavy cavalry/cataphracts where a firm seat is especially important, and the treeless type for lighter cavalry. 
 
My Cataphract armor is based on the bronze set from Dura with a serpent decorated chamfron I believe from the Straubing horde. I think there were pictures of it on the Vitoriano Museum exhibit thread. 
 
Here is a quick question you may be able to help me with in reference to Zoarasterianism, though it is from an ancient source that may not be valid today. This Zoarastrian source (the Dinkard), states that the holy scriptures of the Jewish faith (Old Testament) were given to the Jews by a 'monstrous dragon' named Zohak. My question then, is if this dragon was believed to be the actual "God" of the Jews (and therefore Christians and Moslems as well), or merely a servant of that God. This has to do with a book about dragons I am close to completing now. 
 
Thanks, Dan 
 
PS. I'm from "South Gate", which you might know since you are from the L.A. area. I left, never to return, when I joined the Army.

03-17-2004, 08:48 PM

Wow Dan, 
 
How much are the saddles going for? And how can I get one? Deepeeka told me they are making them on special order, but Id love to see one first. Also, when can I get one and from whom? 
 
As for the Zoroastrian question. I know of no such reference in Zoroastrianism or Mithrix as a religion. It might be another text trying to describe zoroastrianism. What is interesting is that many books that I have read on Zoroastrianism, are not only inaccurate, but also extremely disrespectful and against what the teaching are. Ill give you a few examples. 
 
First, they say we worship fire. You cold not be any further from the truth. In fact, its quite blasphemous to say so. Fire is one of four sacred elements in Zoroastrianism. Earth, Fire, Water and Air. Four elements that in the core of Zoroastrianism are meant to be kept pure and unpolluted. They symbolize the four points of the cross for us. The cross was a powerful symbol for the Zoroastrianism, and hence for Mithrix followers as well. Mithrix is an offshoot of Zoroastrianism. The Cross was so powerful and so strong a symbol that it was finally adopted by the Roman Christians because it was already so ingrained in the Roman Mithrix tradition. Anyway, Zoroastrians keep the eternal fire in the temple as a source of light and purity. We pray towards any light, not just fire. For a zoroastrian, he must strand erect and proud facing the brightest light to pray. That brightest light is considered to be the symbol of purity and the light within us. The Ahura which brings to us Ashoo-ee (phoenetic spelling). The Ahura in Ahura Mazda means the light. Mazda, means the all knowing wisdom. Therefore, Ahura Mazda means the enlightened one. 
 
For zoroastrians, there is no such thing as the demons and devils or evils. That is a false translation in later periods, which translated Angra Maynu to Ahriman. Ahriman became the devil. What it is in its true Zoroastrian form is the angry mind. For a Zoroastrian, there is only one god. From god come all and only good things. However, inherint in Zoroastrianism is the idea that there is no good without evil and the two forces are in eternal struggle. It is for man to choose to path that he follows. Even Ahura Mazda is in struggle with good and evil. For evil is a part of everything. For a Zoroastrian, life is a choice of following the light force or the dark force. One must not die to go to hell, we can make hell on earth. But in order to get to heaven, we must make heaven on earth. 
 
So, for a Zoroastrian, to refer to anything regarding another force as being evil, such as the jewish god is blaspheme in itself. Furthermore, for a Zoroastrian, to think upon other religions, men, women, children in anything less than an equal in gods creation is blaspheme. A feature that became trouble in the Late Sassanian period clerics. 
 
However, let me just say two things, to try and explain this here in a few paragraphs is a totally futile effort. Its a concept that much like any other fate, is a life long pursuit to understand. George Lucas studied it to come up with his base for Star Wars. 
 
Dan, as for South Bay, yes I know it. Where are you now? If you ever come out here, it would be an honor to meet you. Also, Id love to see some photos of your cataphract outfit. Please let me know on the Saddles and any other help that you might afford me. 
 
Thanks soooo much, and we are all indepted to you. 
Ardeshir 
[email protected]

03-17-2004, 08:52 PM

By the way Dan, please let me know the reference in the Dinkard and I will look into it for you asap.

TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS · 03-18-2004, 08:46 AM

Quote:<hr>One must not die to go to hell, we can make hell on earth. But in order to get to heaven, we must make heaven on earth<hr> 
 
Interesting enlighting about Zoroastrianism, I'd really like to know more directly from a zoroastrian, if you will have time to start it, I think that a topic (in Off topic section) about this religion (not to be discussed, just to be known), will be really apreciated. 
 
Here are the pictures and the videos of the event and exhibition I organized in Ostia antica and Roma in 2003, there you can see the cataphract set as Dan told you: 
 
pub45.ezboard.com/fromana...=873.topic 
 
Vale, 
Titus

Hibernicus · 03-18-2004, 04:32 PM

Titus, 
 
The images seem to be no longer available. 
 
 
Hibenricus

aitor iriarte · 03-18-2004, 05:30 PM

Hibernicus, 
 
I've had a look at those pictures this very morning (I've not been able to make the videos work, though! ) 
 
Aitor

Daniel S Peterson · 03-18-2004, 06:51 PM

Sassanian, 
 
Deepeeka cannot even say yet how much the saddles will cost until the first one is completed. Although we have one with a wooden tree, which only needs its leather cover and girth strap, I am going to recommend the pad type, because there is no one "universal" tree that will fit all breeds of horse. Otherwise, I can foresee people complaining of the saddle hurting their horse's back if we use the type with a tree. There were a lot of problems like this on the long Junkelmann Limes rides. I suspect the saddles won't be completed until I go to India in September. 
 
Reference to the Dinkard and the Dragon, I do not have the specific 'verse' if there is such a thing. This quote if from the Jewish Encylcopedia.Com and refers to two different tranlations, one English and one German. It says: The Dinkard goes further than this, however, and declares "that the Jewish Scriptures were first composed by Zohak, a monstrous dragon of the race of Ahriman", (Jackson, l.c, pp. 633-664 and Spiegel, "Eranische Alterthumskunde, i. 530-544, Lepizig, 1871-78. 
 
While at first glance this may seem a disparaging remark, my book explores the premise that while often considered 'evil' entities, the creatures collectively known as 'dragons' are actually the highst 'servants' of the God of the Judao-Christian religions (as well as other early Mesopotamian religions, though one of these creatures is the 'Satan' of the Bible. 
 
I now live in Baumholder, where I am the curator of the 1st Armored Division Museum. This is about 50 kilometers southeast of Trier. 
 
Dan

03-18-2004, 09:31 PM

WOW, 
 
Im soooo unbelievabley impressed with those photos. I cannot begin to tell you. Dan your armor collection is amazing. And Titus, thank you for the pics. That gathering of Romans was an amazing thing to see. 
 
As for the Zoroastrian stuff, well, what can I say, Id be more than happy to tell you what I know. 
 
As for the Dinkart, I am looking into it. I dont know what to say regarding it yet. Im going to look into it seriously for you. I know that the Dinkart is a very important document in that it was written by one of the Magi in the Court of the Kings. But the only issue is the Translation to english from Pahlavi and also the Translation from Avesta to Pahlavi. 
 
As soon as I know, I will let you know. 
 
Dan, thank you sooo much for the info on the saddle. Id be more than happy if you could let me know when a saddle is available. Also, not to sound above my station, but I am an extremely accomplished rider. Both bareback and in the saddle. Also, I have ridden horses for many many many years. I work horses professionally as well. I am dressage trained and have chosen polo on an extremely competative level as my love and passion. 
 
When the saddles are done, if you could let me know the cost and how to get one, Id be more than happy to put it through the rigours of heavy testing to let you know what I think of it. Also, to test it out with lancing, archery and the high impact of schooling and short working in an aggressive manner to tell you what I think of the saddle. Just a thought. 
 
Ardeshir 
ps thank you, to all of you guys, and especially you Dan, for all that you guys do. I think you people are amazing in how you have brought this world to life.

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