SASSANIAN/ROMAN SADDLE

[Daniel S Peterson]

Sassanian,<br>
Thanks for the kind comments on my "toys". I still have family in California and when I go there again, and if the saddles are ready, I'll take one along which you can test. You are obviously much more of a horse expert than me, so will try to get a pic of the original rigid tree to show so you will have an idea of how "universal" it might be, but clearly, no one saddle will ever property fit the many different breeds reenactors will want to use with the saddle. This is why the pad type might be better. Even so, I will recommend to Deepeeka to sell the saddles as "display use only" to avoid any potential lawsuits, though I would not approve the issue of any, until I tried it myself.<br>
<br>
My greatest "bareback" ride was a televised race in the original Circus of Mexentius at Rome. If you have the Junkelmann Cavalry books you will see us on the cover of one. I believe I came in "second", though admit "hanging on to the mane for dear life!"<br>
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The Limes Ride was a grueling experience, but one of my highlights of living in Europe. I have asked Rich to post a pic on this thread of "Castor" and myself, on the first phase of the Limes march, somewhere near the Roman fort at Butzbach. This was before my Carmargue-based Roman saddle was built, and I am riding Peter Connolly's original prototype seen in JRMES and painted in his "The Cavalryman" book. "Castor", as are all the other horses from the original Limes ride, sadly, now deceased. Appropriately, he is also the horse I rode in the Rome sequence you may have seen at the temple of Castor and Pollux in the books.<br>
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I like your mail-coifed Sassanian helmet. Please post a pic of your complete mounted impression. I am now building six complete Flavian, and six complete 'late' Roman cavalry impressions in addition to the cataphract stuff. Maybe we will be able to stage a Roman vs. Persian cavalry skirmish someday!<br>
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If you happen to run accross any other "dragon" accounts besides the one I mentioned in the Dinkard, please let me know. I do not think this text is posted in English anywhere on the internet.<br>
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Thanks, Dan<br>
<br>
(NB: Dan asked me to post this photo of Castor and him; the link is to a larger image)<br>
<img src="http://img15.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Richsc/SCastorDan.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
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img15.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Richsc/CastoDan.jpg<br>
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<p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=richsc@romanarmytalk>RichSC</A> at: 3/23/04 3:22 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

What's that bridle doing under that horse's hoof, trooper?<br>
Never mind.. <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Dan, that photo is awesome. Wow.<br>
<br>
I will get a pick up as soon as I can. I havent had a chance to get all my stuff together, or what I have of it so far and take a pic as of yet.<br>
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As for the Dragon related stuff, I will definitley do so. I will be In Iran in 2 weeks and Ill see about asking one of the Magi there about it as well.<br>
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With respect to you being in California. You have to let me know when you are here. I would love to meet you. For the saddles, well, Id be more than happy to give you my opinion regarding them. And if you bring one, man oh man would I be happy to give you my opinion regarding it and if possible its use.<br>
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Please, again, please let me know as soon as you hear from Deepeeka regarding the saddles. My interest in one is very extreme.<br>
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Well, all of my best and warmest regards.<br>
Ardeshir <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

The earliest "true" reconstruction of a four horned Roman saddle I know of was the one I made in 1985 for the exhibit our Leg XIIII did for the 2000th anniversary of Augsburg in conjuntion with Junkelmann's arrival over the alps. I believe this was before any of the Hyland and Connolly reconstructions, and was what inspired Marcus to do the Roman cavlary experiments. It was basically a thick felt pad cut to fit the valkenburg leather, with bronze horns. We dressed a local guy (who had a horse) as a cavalryman, and he was very impressed with how well the saddle worked. In defense of this treeless saddle reconstruction, it should be noted that Roman bronze horn stiffeners only have holes for stitching into the leather, and not holes to be nailed into a tree. Also, this pad type saddle will fit any horse and adjust to the horses back as it becomes leaner on campaign.<br>
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List,<br>
<br>
Hello, I’m a first time poster here so hopefully I’m not rehashing a question already covered. After reading the comment by Mr. Peterson regarding the Roman horned saddle reproduction, made from “a thick felt padâ€ÂÂ

[Daniel S Peterson]

Scott,<br>
The "pad saddle" tested at Augsburg had a double girth, much like military mule riding saddles. This keeps the saddle well-anchored to the horse. The horse rider was a skilled hungarian stunt rider and attested with was a worthwhile design. This descign would make the saddle much less expensive, and guarantee a proper fit on every horse.<br>
<br>
There is no evidence for how the horns were sewn into the saddle, but all of the bronze horn plates I have seen only have small holes along the edges which suggest being sewn into the leather pad, with no trace of larger holes to anchor it to a wooden tree.<br>
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The most easily obtainable book that shows the Valkenburg leather, horns and hypothetical wooden treeee, is Peter Connnolly's "Tiberius Claudius Maximus: The Cavalryman" from Oxford University Press. It also shows the points where both field equipment and decorative plates can be atached.<br>
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Although Peter's saddle works, and I rode it (instead of my pad) during the limes ride, the square corners of the original Valkenburg leather more suggests being sewn flat on a thick felt pad, than tucked under a rigid tree.<br>
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I will try to find my original prototype, and take a picture of it for RAT soon.<br>
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Dan <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Mr. Peterson,<br>
Thanks for the reply, I'm looking for Mr. Connolly's book as we speak. I'd certainly appreciate the pictures of your pad saddle and am really interested in trying my hand at making and riding one of these saddles!<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Scott McMahon <p></p><i></i>

[JRSCline]

Terrific thread!<br>
<br>
Ardeshir, you are going to be a great -- and pretty much unique -- asset to the Roman re-enacting world. I frankly can't think of anyone who does a heavy cataphract impression. And with your riding skills, you can certainly put on excellent demonstrations, if you choose.<br>
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If you haven't already acquired them, I highly recommend the books by Ann Hyland -- <em>Equus: the Horse in the Roman World</em> being my favorite. She's an accomplished endurance rider and has done a lot of reconstruction and experimentation with the help of Peter Connolly, who designed her two saddles based on early finds.<br>
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In fact, I can imagine the two of you would have an awful lot to talk about. Why don't you try finding an address for her? Peter Connolly would know how to reach her, and I can help you get in touch with him.<br>
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Let me know: JRSCline AT yahoo.com.<br>
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Thanks for the info on Zoroastrianism. It is a very poorly understood faith for most of us, and I'll clearly have to do some more reading on it.<br>
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Cheers<br>
Jenny <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

<br>
Mr. Peterson,<br>
I understand there is no evidence regarding how the horns were sewin into the original saddles but can you give a description of how you sewed yours to the felt pad version? It seems the plates would've been attached to something solid such as a wooden core and if so I wonder how well this would hold up under constant use on a treeless saddle. Is it possible that the plates were nailed to a wooden core rather than sewn onto it? I apologize for all these questions fro a novice but I'm interested in this saddle design and I want to get it as close to correct as possible, to borrow a phrase from another board I frequent I want to get it "least wrong"!<br>
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Another question I have regarding these saddles is where did this design originate from or does anyone have any ideas on this one? Just curious... looking forward to y'alls input-thanks!<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Scott McMahon<br>
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PS- got my copy of Connolly's book on it's way... can't wait for it! <p></p><i></i>

[richsc]

Mainly because I get asked questions during school demos (always by girls), I've accumulated several books on Roman cavalry:<br>
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"Equus" by Ann Hyland (used only, and hard to get)<br>
"Training the Roman Cavalry" by Ann Hyland<br>
"Roman Cavalry Equipment" by Stephenson & Dixon<br>
"The Roman Cavalry" by Dixon and Southern<br>
"The Cavalryman" by Peter Connolly<br>
<br>
There is also "Horse Guards" by Speidel, but I haven't managed to snag that one yet. <p>Legio XX<br>
Fortius Conamur<br>
<br>
</p><i></i>

[Daniel S Peterson]

Mustang,<br>
I have asked Rich to post a couple of pics of the original 1985 Roman 'pad' saddle to this post. Per your previous question, there is no evidence of the horns being nailed to a wooden tree, only lots of tiny holes suggesting they were stitched directly into the leather. This alone keeps the horns firmly in place, but they do 'give' a little when mounting and dismounting, which is a good thing.<br>
<br>
The four horned 'Roman' saddle may actually be a celtic invention for it is seen in their art. However, to my knowledge no bronze horn plates have ever been found in a pre-Roman, Celtic context. Perhaps even the Macedonians had a similar Pad saddle with some kind of projections to provide a firmer seat, if not the well-pronounced horns of the Celtic-Roman type, considering their use of the kontos.<br>
<br>
Dan<br>
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(below are Dan's photos...Richard)<br>
<img src="http://img15.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Richsc/thumbsaddle2.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
Larger image:<br>
img15.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Richsc/S_saddle2.jpg<br>
<br>
<img src="http://img15.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Richsc/thumbsaddle1.jpg" style="border:0;"/><br>
Larger image:<br>
img15.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Richsc/S_saddle1.jpg <p></p><i>Edited by: <A HREF=http://pub45.ezboard.com/bromanarmytalk.showUserPublicProfile?gid=richsc@romanarmytalk>RichSC</A> at: 4/15/04 4:03 am<br></i>

[Anonymous]

Dan,<br>
Thanks! I look forward to the pictures...<br>
<br>
Regarding Mustang....<br>
I guess I need to come up with a Roman name since I'm gonna be frequenting these pages pretty regularly now. How do y'all determine/decide on your names?<br>
SMc <p></p><i></i>

[Anonymous]

Richard,<br>
Thanks for posting the pictures!<br>
<br>
Dan,<br>
I appreciate you humoring me on this topic... but I'm having problems seeing this one.<br>
<br>
Now I don't know the whole story behind the goatskin cover that was found for this saddle and I'm not a saddler by trade but while the felt pad idea sounds good the saddle that was posted doesn't look like the saddles in conemtporary artwork. Having not ridden one I can't speak with any authority but I can't possibly see how these horns being attached to a "soft" base like a felt pad would function properly. Also they don't stand up like the horns on a rigid framed saddle and like those found in contmeporary artwork. I'm still at a loss as to how it's been determined the bronze plates were sewn onto a saddle rather than nailed onto a tree(which is what the holes look like they're there for to me). I'm not trying to be a pest and hope I'm not but in the interest of doing things correctly I am curious as to how these conclusions have been drawn?<br>
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Does your saddle have the bronze plates under the leather cover? What are they composed of... some sort of stuffing, a wood core?<br>
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Does anyone else have anything to add to this? Are there any other folks out there looking at doing a mounted impression that wonder the same things?<br>
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I really appreciate you helping with this and hope that I'm asking legitmate questions... I've been through this with mid 19th century saddles already and just want to get it right the first time with the expense that's involved in obtaining period tack.<br>
SMc <p></p><i></i>