Recontruction of Belt from Herculaneum and Pompeii in 79 AD.

[Nurglitch]

And the reconstitution of the Miles

Sorry for the temporary OT, but does anyone know how he carried that sack? Was it on some sort of a strap, or loose and carried in hand?

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Piotr

Sorry for the temporary OT, but does anyone know how he carried that sack? Was it on some sort of a strap, or loose and carried in hand?



In the D'Amato based reconstruction a Commachio type bag was used.

see gsillustrator.co.uk Image Bank: The Early Roman Empire page 1

Graham.

[Rado]

I would like to ask.
Which is the correct way to assemble the Pompeii /Herculaneum belt?
I have the task of preparing a cingulum with Tekije belt parts. But to put them together in the Pompeii /Herculaneum way. Includes 1-buckle ,1- Gladius hanger and 10 plates. Together with the 5 pendants(everything is made of brass and then tinned ) .Numbers of the plates and pendants are customer wishes.

[PhilusEstilius]

Rado.
I think that to have any belt that is to carry a sword it surely has to have two belt frogs/hangers otherwise just how is it going to be suspended with only one.

[Rado]

I totally agree with you Philus! That I tried to explain to some of my friends .. But however.. customer always have the right to order whatever he thinks is the right way.

[Rado]

I will participate in this year's festival Natale di Roma 2012 ( together with the entire fourth). We plan on the return way to pass with our bus through Pompeii ! Could you please direct me :Where to look to see ( and if I had a chance to photograph this notorious belt parts).
In which museum exactly to look for? Just to avoid time wasting!

[jvrjenivs]

I will participate in this year's festival Natale di Roma 2012 ( together with the entire fourth). We plan on the return way to pass with our bus through Pompeii ! Could you please direct me :Where to look to see ( and if I had a chance to photograph this notorious belt parts).
In which museum exactly to look for? Just to avoid time wasting!

I'm not sure if they are on exhibit at all. Anyway, you will not find them in Pompeii or herculaneum themselves. The national archaeology museum in Napels seems to the best choose, but it's always the question which departments will be opened and which ones will be closed when you visit.

[PhilusEstilius]

I think that I would agree with Jurjen it may well be the main museum in Napoli, however as he points out with these museums you do have to catch them open.
What I am very sure you will not find is frog plates with hinges as produced by Konig for they are not hinged they are in fact rigid frog pieces.

[PhilusEstilius]

I think I must correct myself concerning these belt frogs for they are indeed hinged.

[Rado]

Unfortunately, during our tour on the occasion "Natale di Roma 2012" we were very limited in time and our group ( we was 42 re-enactors ) have to decide which museum to examine before we board on the ferry, Pompeii or Napels.
Even I insist on the museum in Naples most of my colleagues (especially the ladies have chosen the open ancient museum of Pompeii.
So that I could not take a look at this emblematic Roman belt !

[Paul Elliott]

The costs of helmets at http://www.replik-online.de blow my mind. £1400 for an Imperial-Gallic helmet? Even more for a 3rdC heddernheim!

If they can charge such prices, I guess people, somewhere, are buying them. I say this because, perhaps with my untrained eye, they look as well made and accurate as helmets sold elsewhere for a tenth of the cost.

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

The costs of helmets at http://www.replik-online.de blow my mind. £1400 for an Imperial-Gallic helmet? Even more for a 3rdC heddernheim!

If they can charge such prices, I guess people, somewhere, are buying them. I say this because, perhaps with my untrained eye, they look as well made and accurate as helmets sold elsewhere for a tenth of the cost.

Actually, stuff like this is, to ME, wrong. WAY wrong. When you look at the original helmets, esp. the Gallic "G" on Roman Hideout, that thing is crooked as a politician's heart. Modern stuff is WAY, WAY too nice and pretty. Too uniform. I know, some will hate me for saying that, but I just think that the real stuff was kinda crappy and if we had a time machine, modern reenactors would NEVER buy the stuff they had then... they want "pretty" and "uniform" and not looking like it was beat out in a shop in India -- actually stuff from India is way to nice too. Nero would JUMP at the chance to outfit his legions w/ that stuff.
My 2 silver pennies on this. ~Marsh

[Kai]

The costs of helmets at http://www.replik-online.de blow my mind. £1400 for an Imperial-Gallic helmet? Even more for a 3rdC heddernheim!

If they can charge such prices, I guess people, somewhere, are buying them. I say this because, perhaps with my untrained eye, they look as well made and accurate as helmets sold elsewhere for a tenth of the cost.

I am not going to defend these prices as I think they are on the high side. BUT: First, the Niederbieber (Heddernheim) there costs about 1260 GPB, not more than 1400 (remember, the Euro is weaker). Second: at a tenth of the cost?! You are going to get machine made, or child slave labour made helmets at such a price range, not hand forged unique helmets made for you alone by professional craftsmen, at least not in Europe.
A German blacksmith always charges a lot per hour if he does the work by hand, you are cheaper off in Poland e.g. for a number of socio-political reasons. But even in Eastern Europe I do not think you will get a hand forged helmet adjusted to your needs at 140 Euro.

@ Marsh,

the beauty of hand forged equipment is that it is less uniform than machine made gear!

[Crispvs]

"The costs of helmets at www.replik-online.de blow my mind. £1400 for an Imperial-Gallic helmet? Even more for a 3rdC heddernheim!

If they can charge such prices, I guess people, somewhere, are buying them. I say this because, perhaps with my untrained eye, they look as well made and accurate as helmets sold elsewhere for a tenth of the cost."


It is true that you can buy a cheap helmet for a tenth of the cost of one from Erik Koenig which looks more or less the same in a photograph. However, Erik's helmets (as with the other things he makes) are handmade using the original techniques and he is a master craftsman (I have watched him working with my own eyes). He also uses archaeological reports and finds catalogues as his pattern books, rather than photographs alone, as well as being a regular visitor to museums to examine the originals as closely as he can. He will follow what he has observed and read in the first hand reports.

By comparison, the Indian helmets are made in a factory out of sheet steel in presses and with hacksaws operated by people who probably do not even know how to distinguish between a Hollywood version of a mediaeval helmet and an accurate Roman one.

In both cases you are getting what you are paying for.

If you care and can afford to, go to Erik Koenig or Holgar Ratsdorf. If you cannot afford Erik or Holgar, then go to Hans Binsfeld or White Rose. If Hans and White Rose are still out of your price range (as they are for me these days, which is one reason why I have made so much of my own kit and why, despite being one of the biggest pugiophiles around, I still do not carry a pugio myself) then fine, get an Indian made item (as long as it looks correct) but be aware that although it might look just as good to the untrained eye in a photograph, it will still not be accurate in terms of its materials and manufacture. As long as you are comfortable with this, then an Indian made item will probably suit your requirements.

Also, it is worth realising that whilst Deepeeka (for instance) might have a catalogue and possibly a stock of items in reserve awaiting ordering for sale, Erik Koenig only has a catalogue in the sense that everything you see on his site is something he has made as a commission for someone and is happy to make again for someone else. His website is a showcase of what he has made in the past, not what he has in stock for sale. The vast majority of his production is made to order and he will always be prepared to make things which do not appear in what appears outwardly to be his 'catalogue'. This is, after all how how he came to make the things you see on his website in the first place.

Crispvs

[DECIMvS MERCATIvS VARIANvS]

Guys, just a thought: Do you think the original armorers knew and cared? I think not. Original stuff was ornate, yet crude. Now, I don't know much about 3rd Century because it doesn't interest me that much (and you guys know that if I DID do 3. Cen., I'd be adorned w/ more swastikas than a Nürnburg rally) :grin: I digress... What I am trying to say is that people, whether reenactors or collectors, want some beautiful piece of art to wear/put on a shelf and wank to "Oh, this is just how it was, built by ANCIENT CRAFTSMEN, not in India by icky people, but instead by OLD WORLD, blah, blah, blah." Bad me. The real stuff I have seen and looked at pix of, is crooked. Stuff is riveted on crookedy. I love the Gallic G at Worms -- it has a rivet mashed into a rosette all crooked. You know most people, especially hyper reenactors would NEVER buy a helmet that is exactly copied from that. It's too shitty. It doesn't go w/ their notions of "Romaness" and their esthetics. Sad, but true.

Anyway, my bloviations above basically explain why someone can get away w/ selling a helmet for like $2000.+ Sorry, but it's pretty, but not authentic (too ME, before someone whines that I am a bastard). For that much money, why not get some work of art from Lord of the Rings?? In reality, although the humble Indian craftsmen do not forge helmets from ore, they do make one that is a bit more realistic than the über-pretty ones the "craftsmen" make. What we need is a way to "uglify" the Indian ones or better, a helmet kit that you can rivet the stuff on and mix and match things like rosettes, etc.
~Evyil Marsh (waiting for a moderator to yell at me for this)