Tents, to be linen or not to be linen.

[Robert]

Salve Edge.

Oh, I'm not for linen or leather in any big way. I know the proof is for leather and should I ever want an authentic tent I will go for leather anyday just because other proof is lacking. But it is always nice to explore other ways things may have been done, like Bryan attemps.

[texascavtrooper]

Col Edge Gibbson,
I woulds like it very much to get the article. Altough I have to say that I found a link to a site that leads me to belive that the romans did in fact only use leather. Here is the site: http://www.geocities.com/historyoftents/intro.html

It dose say something about a scene from the Barberini mosaic at Palestrina, showing soldiers by the Nile in Egypt in attendance on the future Emperor Augustus whois sitting under a fabric shade. This is far from being evidence that the Romans used a form of cloth tent. So I will conceed to the facts. Anyway I thank you all for your imput as well as helping a new comer. I would in deed be interested in anything that would show the use of tents and the life of a common soldier. I am in the army in Iraq right now and hve had the luck to get to see first hand the ruins of Babylon, very impressive. Again thank you all for the help!
SGT Bryan Fitch

[Gaius_Calvus]

No problem.

Send me an email or PM and I will email you the article.

Edge

[Bran ap Maclou]

Hi,

With a classic leather papilio, you need 25 bovine skins or 70 goat or sheep skins to shelter 8 men. A full legion then need to slaughter more than 1250 bovines or 3500 goats or sheep just for papilios. That's pretty much for an all-leather hypothesis in some regions of the empire but it stays possible.

Martine Leguilloux says that this survey lead by Carol van Driel-Murray indicates that the making of the tent was ruled and legally standardized by the administration.
However we can remark that most of the discovers were made in northern Europe (wet and cold countries). Nothing identified as tent element has been found in southern parts of the empire AFAIK where leather and textile conservation is more difficult. Even Egypt which furnished a lot of leather artefacts did not furnished some remarkable tent artefacts for what I have been able to check.

In another hand, some few linen fabric fragments were found who never interested anyone or impossible to rely to tents or clothes. They are some of these directly shelved discovers. Some french archaeologists uses this example to point the difficulty to clearly identify a textile or leather fragment except some exceptionnal finds like Vindolanda or Valkenburg...

I can't find any other informations on tents but just a word about "sub-pellis"

Pellis is the word for skin with hairs not always a tanned one probably.
The sub-pellis appears in Caesar : Bellum gallicum 3.29 ; Bellum civile 3.13 and Tacite : Annales 13.35.

This word is strictly different from Corium, a tanned skin without hair (fur is a sign of barbarism during early empire except exotic and precious ones, not for tents)
Tacite in Annales 4.72 tells about Frisons who have to deliver ox skins for military uses (Coria boum ad usus militares)


Sorry, that doesn't make us progress but my opinion is that it's difficult to believe into a full leather tent army, particularly in hot parts of the empire and particularly when some high-rank use some "tentoria auguralia" really bigger and heavier. Hard to believe yes but no proof to gain certainty...

Bye

[texascavtrooper]

Hello,
Thanks for the info. I agree that it's hard to belive but most all of the evidence I have found would suggest that most all of the tents were leather. Although the link I added above talk about a seen with Roman soldiers and future Emperor Augustus sitting under a fabric shade. The truth of it all is we may never know for fact if they used Linen tents. But I think that it's possible.
Bye,
Bryan

[M. Demetrius]

Fabric is VERY labor-intensive to produce -why waste this on keeping soldiers dry, when the goatskin is a by-product of meat production?

The process of tanning hides is not as easy as some might think. But don't lose sight of the plain fact that labor was not as pricey then as it is today. I suppose some kind of time/labor analysis could be made to determine if tanning hides and harvesting/processing/spinning/weaving cloth were roughly equal in difficulty of production, but I wouldn't know how to set it up.

Anyone who has sewn both will likely agree that cloth is much easier to sew a tight seam than leather, for many reasons. The weight of leather is certainly higher than cloth, in the general sense of what we're discussing here. A papilio in modern canvas weighs something like 20 lbs (9 kg), while a leather one could easily weigh three times that much.

[texascavtrooper]

David,
I agree but like I said before is that all or most of the evidence points to leather as being the main thing used. Although I found one thing that said the future Emperor Augustus sitting under a fabric shade. So there is proof that fabric was used for shades but none for tents. I agree with what you said about the sewing as well. I have sewn both leather and heavy linen and the linen is by far easier to sew. Yes, the linen/canvas is lighter then leather. How ever it was brought up that an oiled goat skin is very light as well. But what about it's strength? :?
Thanks,
Bryan Fitch

[M. Demetrius]

I've never tested the relative strengths. Linen fiber is very strong, though, that's for sure. Both linen and leather will mold and mildew if not handled correctly when they are wet.

Those molds and fungi gradually destroy the "fabric" they grow on.

[texascavtrooper]

You are correct. How ever thin oiled leather will strech before it tears. I just can't get over the weight issue. If the Army was to move fast then a light small tent needed to be used. Did the Roman Army use carts or wagons to move? This could explan why they used Leather tents. :?

Bryan

[M. Demetrius]

They used carts, wagons and mules...and of course, infantrymen and some slave-porters. At least that's what I've read.

[texascavtrooper]

OK, is there anywhere that they say where they loaded the tents? I don't think they would expect to put a tent and all there other stuff for 8 men on one mule.

[Bran ap Maclou]

Well, I can't remember exactly, but there's a text for britain garrisons indicating that each contubernium had a mule to carry the common gear (and the tent is part of this gear but also the future booty).

Someone would have the references ? Perhaps in Tacitus ? :?

Bye

Greg

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Mules are pretty sturdy, and a contuburians load would probably fit on one, the rest of the kit common to the century as a whole would possibly be on the carts and wagons. Who knows, perhaps the mule is pulling a cart?

[scythius]

David -

My experiences with raw materials include slaughter, skinning, peocessing dozen of hides of various types, using a variety of processes - both modern and historic.

As for textiles - I have collected/processed/spun/dyed and woven a variety of fibers - animal and vegetable - to the tune of several hundred meters of textiles.

If you are going to be putting grunts and their gear under cover in the ancient world - the least expensive way is sub pellibus - under skins.

[M. Demetrius]

I have to agree, Adam, that's the words they used, so that's the material they used. However, what I was pointing out was that some were evidently trivializing the effort and skill necessary to tan green hides into usable leather. I've done it too, but you know, having done that, I shop at the leather stores now. It's a horrible stinking mess to deal with if it's near your house and you have more than two or three to do.

A tannery would probably be on the outskirts of town if not further, at least in most places, as its byproducts would drive the property values down, you know? I also saw the "World's Dirtiest Jobs" episode in the tannery. Ick. Hats off to those who want to brain tan and chew the hides. I'll pass. :? shock: