dyeing linen

[John M McDermott]

Has anyone had any experience dyeing line with such natural dyes as woad, madder, etc.?

John

[jvrjenivs]

Check this excellent blog post by Tim Edwards:
[url:17hkg2vz]http://virtuallegionary.blogspot.com/2009/11/dyers-workshop.html[/url]

[Matthew Amt]

Years ago I wore a natural "oatmeal" linen hunting frock with my Revolutionary War impression. Some friends were doing a batch of indigo dyeing at a local colonial farm, so I decided to dye it blue. First I stripped off the fringe, and dyed that separately in modern RIT dye (came out pink!). The frock was tossed into a big iron kettle over a fire, and the dyers slowly stirred it for a while. When it was pulled out, it was vibrant Kermit-the-Frog green, and before our eyes the dye reacted with the air and turned sky blue. Fascinating to watch! When I got home I gave it a rinse with baking soda to remove the acidity of the dye, and after it dried I sewed the fringe back on. Sky blue with pink fringe, a perfect match to the red Regimental coats with red facings, ha! George Washington would have been proud.

I'm always puzzled when people say how hard it is to dye linen. Granted, modern dyes work better on it than many ancient ones! But it is certainly possible to achieve a wide variety of colors, even if the pales and pastels are the most common and likely. The "active ingredient" in woad is basically the same as in indigo, just less concentrated, so it will work fine. I am thinking of trying some madder, particularly since I saw a fascinating article online about using cold water and just leaving the fabric to soak for a couple days--excellent madder reds resulted. (Note--that was probably wool, but I'd still like to try it!) As I understand it, use alum as a mordant and a non-iron pot with madder to avoid getting muddy shades.

Mind you, I don't know the details of getting the raw dye plants into proper dye-bath form! Might include chopping, cooking, steeping in urine, etc. I know that a madder dye-bath (if not using the cold method) should be hot but not boiling to get the brightest color. Pretty sure that indigo bath was simmering, though.

Dye, dye, dye! (Hee hee hee!)

Matthew

[John M McDermott]

I have been blogging around and find pastel colors are the most likely when using natural dyes. Interestingly, the Scotts and Irish had a plant that produced a saffron color in linen, so much so that the English wondered how they were getting saffron.

My purpose is the focale. I shy away from burlap and find linen really nice to my skin.

Madder and cherries produce a variety of reds and pinks. Woad produces a light blue. Bright yellows are possible, too.

[Graham Sumner]

I'm always puzzled when people say how hard it is to dye linen.

I agree with Matt but most of the sources I have read state that in ancient times linen appears to have been left its natural colour or was often bleached white in the sun. Two sources which I came across doing the research for my books appear to show white scarves, so I guess John you are OK with the white one that you have in your avatar.

Graham.

[John M McDermott]

It seems unsatisfactory to stop inquiry with this conclusion. The Romans had dyes that would dye linen. Why wouldn't they dye linen? Other ancient people dyed their linen. In trade and commerce, why wouldn't Romans have acquired dyed linen?

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

It seems unsatisfactory to stop inquiry with this conclusion. The Romans had dyes that would dye linen. Why wouldn't they dye linen? Other ancient people dyed their linen. In trade and commerce, why wouldn't Romans have acquired dyed linen?

Sunbleached linen would be an off white yellowy colour...
and I cannot fathom why they wouldn't dye linen. There is colour depicted in mosaics and frescoes....

[John M McDermott]

I would further postulate that the Roman world was alive with color and that they would have seized every opportunity to display color in their clothing. Why we find scant evidence of this is another matter.

[Matthew Amt]

Oh, a lot of that could simply have been fashion. Same thing happens today--look at men's suits! Especially juxtaposed with what business women wear. So while we all seem to feel that they COULD have dyed linen, it's just possible that they simply did not do so very often. But you can still do an awful lot with just bleached and natural threads: twills, stripes, checks, or even patterns using the same color in bands of Z-spun and S-spun threads. There's a linen fragment from a Villanovan grave that has a sort of terrycloth texture made by weft-looping, and it's entirely possible that was done in a pattern or motif of some sort rather than overall. So even plain white linen could be pretty exciting! (And it can be pretty snowy-white when sunbleached.)

Part of the problem, of course, is that there is just darn little linen surviving, and if it's all undyed we're kinda stuck with that. Artwork is only so much help because we can't necessarily tell whether it depicts linen or wool. So it's up to the literature to tell us what was done with linen.

Of course, the other problem is FINDING proper exciting fabrics! "What do you mean, JoAnn's don't have Z-spun/S-spun checks?? And no weft-loop designs at ALL?? Barbarians!!"

Gotta build a loom...

Matthew

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

(And it can be pretty snowy-white when sunbleached.)
I'll take your word for it. Not often I see the sun out long enough to experiment...

At the TORM last month, there was a supplier who had quite a few interesting weaves...one I had only seen as a small patch someone had sent a broach pinned to, but a whole roll of it. I was almost tempted to by a few yards of it......but common sense kicked in..

[John M McDermott]

Let's see:

1. Men's suits are a certain way today.
2. We have found no colored Roman linen.
3. The texts that mention linen don't mention colored linen.

Therefore, the Romans never dyed linen.

Sorry, but this syllogism lacks a certain elegance. Possible problems in concluding that the linen we have found was not colored could be because of the age of the linen itself. The Thorsberg sagum has changed color 3-4 times?

Texts don't mention a lot of things. Are we to conclude that segmentatas didn't exist prior to 50 A.D. because they are not mentioned in the texts?

[Matthew Amt]

Eek, no, I wasn't trying to create a logical proof! On the contrary, I mostly agree with you. And there is never enough good evidence! I was just throwing out some vague caveats, and warning that "They MUST have done it" is not necessarily a safe tenet on which to base anything. Frankly, I'm happy to waffle about it all--it looks like undyed linens are the safest way to go, but I won't object to colored linens! Some of that's just a reluctance to force reenactors (especially the ladies!) to wear wool all summer, but still. Maybe I'm just getting lazy in my old age!

Vale,

Matthew

[John M McDermott]

I hope that as the techniques for analyzing paint and dye on surviving sculpture and fabric improve the Roman world will go from B&W to living color.

[Marcus Mummius]

I hope that as the techniques for analyzing paint and dye on surviving sculpture and fabric improve the Roman world will go from B&W to living color.

Most of the techniques are there. It's more a case of not having enough interest and manpower to do this kind of research....

[Graham Sumner]

I hope that as the techniques for analyzing paint and dye on surviving sculpture and fabric improve the Roman world will go from B&W to living color.

Hi

I am not sure I understand this statement as there is plenty of evidence for clothing colour in the Roman world it is just that in this respect the evidence suggests they tended to dye wool rather than linen. While most of the dye from textiles found in Northern Europe may have been lost the same can not be said for those found in Egypt were the dye survives very well. A gleaming White was obviously something that was regarded as important and a status symbol. The candidates for elections wore whitened clothes hence the name, Christ was described as having shining white clothes and soldiers on parade wore whitened clothes.

The Egyptian funeral portraits show ladies wearing very brightly coloured clothes in reds purples blues and greens. The soldiers in these paintings wear red, blue and olive green cloaks with their whitened tunics so obviously in their very best outfits for their portrait.

If you are having problems with a course wool scarf you can always invest in a very fine weave and some Roman garments in wool are almost silk like. Another accident of discovery is that we do not know how widespread the use of cotton was. There is more evidence coming to light for its use all the time. As an officer there is probably no reason why you could not have a cotton scarf.

Graham.