Ok, I have heard what Dan Peterson had to say about tents. Now I want to hear what the rest of you have to say about them. I know that there is evidence to show that the Roman army used tents made out of Leather. Ok, but I also know that the Romans had a type of linen that they made sails out of. When I asked Dan about if the Romans would have made tents out of this linen his reply was that when wet they were to heavy for the mule to carry with all the other gear. Now I find this very hard to belive. I do Am Rev-War and help my squad hand sew our LINEN tent. We had it up at an event when it started to rain. It was wet when we took it down and it seemed to be not much heavier then when we put it up. Dan also said that the leather would repel the water after it had been oiled. Yes that is correct but to me leather is much heavier that linen even when wet. Is this not correct? If you oil it it becomes even heavier that before. I also know of sails that had been treated with oils or bees wax to keep them from becoming soaked while at sea. I wonder if the Romans would have done the same to tents. Wouldn't it also be cheaper for them to make Linen tents. Now I know that there is no evidence to support any of this but it would make sence. The Roman Army had to run on a budget just like the army today so costs would play a big factor in what and how they would buy and build things.
First, I don't believe the part about weight. Leather is also very heavy and after rain I still think the leather one would be heavier then the linen one.
The costs didn't matter that big I guess. As the roman army just could tell their allies that they had to provide leather. This would make the material of equal price, I guess. (But is just what comes to my mind. Haven't think about this before)
But, as you state correctly. We only have some evidence of leather tents.
I agree that the weight thing is not true. Even wet linen would be lighter than leather. As for cost you are probably right but if they did that for leather why not for linen? I know that there is evidence of leather because it lasts longer then Linen. I would like to know if there are any pictures of the Roman army at camp.
Thanks! are there any other known examples out there?
Hi Bryan,
I love the title Texas cavalry trooper. I have strange ACW leanings, and ride for both the blue and the grey. I may not grow out of it.
Thanks for the PM. I hope it's OK replying on the forum. If you send me your email address I can send you some illustrations of 5th century tents.
In the earlier period leather tents must be considered a given.
Leather was cheaper than linen. Linen is lighter when wet. Illustrations show dirty colours which could be either. But later Saxon illustrations do seem to show canvas tents.
Thin goat skin soaked in olive oil is very light.
Yes to canvas sails and awnings for shade. Yes to the use of shelters made from cloaks in Maurice. Yes to the use of strange shelters made of cloaks (?) in the Roman Virgil. Yes to the use of felt gers (yurts to many)on the steppes, also mentioned in Maurice.
There was a piece of leather around 2.5m by 1.8m amongst the Deurne assemblage that may have been a tent.
Lots of prints through history show the same basic tent construction of some canvas thrown over two uprights and a crosspiece. It seems logical for 4th century impressions onwards. Logical, but not certain.
John,
Thanks. It seems that leather it is. Although I still think that there had to have been linen tents. Maybe not.
Bryan
It's been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, but apparently there's lots of evidence for hemp fiber as sailcloth during the Roman era. If it's good enough to sail with there's a fair chance they might've slept under it as well. And apparently hemp has some natural mildew resistant properties, which would make it even more favorable.
See this article: "New Light on Old Tents" by Carol van Driel-Murray.
Journal of Roman Military Equipment Studies, 1, 1990.
From the article:
"That leather was the main material for construction is clear from the fact that
sub pellibus (under hides) is the normal phrase to denote a tent camp."
The article continues to explain that the majority of leather finds from Roman Army camp sites can be linked to tentage.
It does not matter that linen tents were used later -- in the Roman period they do not seem to be. If you can prove otherwise, then I'm sure we'd all be interested to see the proof.
If you would like a copy of the van-Driel-Murray article, I can send it to you.
Regards,
Edge
Adrian, as that a tent to the right in picture 2.84 as well? This seems to have smooth sides as opposed to the one on the left. Could be a pointer to a larger textile??
Or, Robert, as we know the column was painted, the details could have been painted on the tents to show the patterns of the leather panels.
As far as I know, there is no archeological evidence of tentage made from any material aside from leather. Is anyone else aware of any from the early imperial period?
we fortget about the cost of textile production.
Fabric is VERY labor-intensive to produce -why waste this on keeping soldiers dry, when the goatskin is a by-product of meat production?
Scithius
The comment on the painting may hold true, but does raise the question why a sculptor would go to the trouble of carefully chiseling the seams on the left and refrain from doing so only a yard or two further to the right and slapping on a coat of paint. We will never know for sure, but should not discount exploring possibilities, even if they go against fixed beliefs. The number of retreats over time on fixid positions are too numerous to valibate the need to stop wondering
Adam does make a good point, though, leather would be readily available for uses where cloth would serve a similar purpose but could best reserved for uses where leather was not fitting, as in most clothing or draperies. It does take a lot of effort to produce an almost watertight weave, such as used in canvas for sails.
Very true, and impossible to say from the images what the artist intended, or how much 2000 years of weather has done.
I still believe that you are dealing with conjecture -- which is fine -- but have yet to see any proof from the archeological record, which I have offered regarding leather tents. :wink:
I like Christian Koepfer's advice:
"If you make up ideas first, then you will find yourself hunting for proof for these."
So, I think you may be hunting for proof of something that you might have made up.
Good luck in your hunt!
Edge
[. It does take a lot of effort to produce an almost watertight weave, such as used in canvas for sails.[/quote]
Robert, I have made a tent out of a thick linen when I was in Germany that was not woven very tight. You could see light trough it in places. You would think that it would let water thru it but when it got wet the fibers swelled and sealed the tent. so the weave of the Linen is not as tight as you would think.
As for tring to prove that the Roman army used only linen/canvas tents I have never said they did. I only asked if they could have used them. I'm not saying that everyone had one but is it possable that they could have used them. Also as we all know cloth dosen't fair well over time and rot fairly quickly in all but the perfect conditions. So the lack of proof is not saying they didn't have them. It's just saying we don't know if they did. Also the point that one tent has seams shown and the other dosen't seams to point to some other material other than leather. But who knows!
Thank you all for the insite.
Bryan