Depeeka Greek helmet

[Tim Mathews]

Is Depeekas Early Spartan Corinthian a better style helmet?

[Paullus Scipio]

Lest anyone should be in any doubt after my post elaborating on Kineas' "poor" remarks, I should hasten to add that I support his ideas regarding typical Hoplite appearance.It should be remembered that our ideas come from the iconography, and the iconography changes after the Persian wars, particularly in Athenian Red-Figure ware. Whereas previously we had seen Gods and Heroes depicted, there was a change toward adding the real Heroes of Marathon and Plataea to the depictions, and we start to see the appearance of funeral monuments....but these show a rather different picture. It is often claimed that we are seeing a 'lightening of equipment' and even that " in the 5C BC the Spartans abandoned body armour".
That the latter statement is untrue is shown by the fact that Plutarch tells us that Agesilaus was wounded 'through his armour' and lest we think that this armour was restricted to Spartan Kings, Xenophon speaks of a Spartan mercenary Hoplite killed by an arrow through his body armour ( spolas).
Of course, this is open to interpretation, but I think that it was fashion in the depictions/iconography that changed, not the equipment itself.
For example, just afew years after the Persian Wars, funeral monuments become fashionable and we start to see Hoplites more like this......(see attachment below)
These are Athenians, but similar depictions exist of Boeotian/Theban and Peloponnesian/Tegean Hoplites.
Because Hoplite gear was individual, and Classic Greek society pyramidical, the minimal gear of simple 'pot' helmet, shield and spear must have been how the majority were equipped, throughout the period of Hoplite warfare.
Current re-enactors are re-creating what the richest 5% ( to pick an arbitrary figure ) wore.......
I believe that the majority of Hoplites looked like the above illustration throughout their history, with perhaps Corinthian helmets (crestless) being more prevalent in the late sixth/early fifth centuries ( see earlier post of armourless Hoplites) .......the idea that armour was 'abandoned' is a myth....it was just never universal.......
P.S. For real poverty, look at the number of metal helmets/body armour found in contemporary societies such as Thracians, Scythians or Iberians......

[PMBardunias]

Consider that in Sparta, 15 out of every 40 men were Spartiates--and the rest "mere" periokoi

There were probably more "rich" perioci than rich spartans! Spartan wealth came from an ever decreasing pool of real estate allotments- one reason that they were so eager to loot when abroad.

Are you implying that some Hoplites fought without helmets?....I would suggest the 'Hoplite' way of warfare required a helmet

There has been arguement that the Spartans at sphacteria wore only felt pilos. If I recall this was based on a quote that the arrows stuck in them.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Xenophon mentioned the arrows piercing the Bronze helmets in the Anabasis I recall.

[Paullus Scipio]

Paul B. wrote:

There has been arguement that the Spartans at sphacteria wore only felt pilos. If I recall this was based on a quote that the arrows stuck in them.

This old chestnut! This is not quite what Thucydides wrote at IV.34:
" The sight of their own number,(Athenian psiloi) which was many times that of the enemy, encouraged them more than anything; they soon found that their losses were trifling compared with what they had expected; and familiarity made them think their opponents much less formidable than when they first landed cowed by the fear of facing Lacedaemonians. They now despised them and with a loud cry rushed upon them in a body, hurling at them stones, arrows, javelins, and every weapon that came first to hand. The shout with which they accompanied the attack dismayed the Lacedaemonians, who were unaccustomed to this kind of warfare. Great clouds of dust arose from the newly-burnt wood, and there was no possibility of a man's seeing what was before him, owing to the showers of arrows and stones hurled by their assailants which were flying amid the dust. And now the Lacedaemonians began to be sorely distressed, for their 'Piloi' did not protect them against the arrows, and the points of the javelins broke off in their armour where they struck them. Piloi originally referred to the Peloponnesian countryman's dogskin/felt cap, and is given thus in most lexica, before modern archaeology turned up bronze 'piloi', hence the confusion. It is extremely unlikely that 'piloi 'here refers to felt hats, but rather bronze helmets of this type, particularly as the Lakedaemonians are wearing armour.Note that there is no reference to arrows sticking in headgear !! :wink:
They were at their wits' end, not being able to see out of their eyes or to hear the word of command, which was drowned by the cries of the enemy. Destruction was staring them in the face, and they had no means or hope of deliverance.

(35) At length, finding that so long as they fought in the same narrow spot more and more of their men were wounded, they closed their ranks and fell back on the last fortification of the island, which was not far off, and where their other garrison was stationed. Instantly the light-armed troops(psiloi) of the Athenians pressed upon them with fresh confidence, redoubling their cries. Those of the Lacedaemonians who were caught by them on the way were killed, but the greater number escaped to the fort and ranged themselves with the garrison, resolved to defend the heights wherever they were assailable.

[PMBardunias]

This old chestnut!

Hey, don't shoot the messenger :wink:

For what it is worth I had always assumed that if it was felt piloi, it was the case that they removed their perfectly good helmets due to the heat, not that they didn't have them.

[hoplite14gr]

Xenophon mentioned the arrows piercing the Bronze helmets in the Anabasis I recall.

Carduchian bows drawn with feet firin arrowes the size of a javeline accorting to "uncle Phondas". This more lika balistra rather than bow.

Please search there is an old thread.

Kind regards

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I have read the book so I won't stetch the point.....still, I imagine
the angle of pentration had a lot to do with it too.

[PMBardunias]

Carduchian bows drawn with feet firin arrowes the size of a javeline accorting to "uncle Phondas".

Such large arrows are commonly used by South American tribes, such as the Yanomami, and by the indigenous peoples in New Guinea. Off hand I don't think they are particularly powerful, but perhaps somebody has information on this. The large mass might aid them in shoting through jungle growth, but surely range is limited.

[Paullus Scipio]

Xenophon IV.2
"Their only arms were bows and slings, and as bowmen they were very good.The bows they had were more than three cubits (over 4feet/1.2m) and their arrows over two cubits (over 3 ft/0.9m). When they shot they put out the left foot and braced the bottom of the bow with it as they drew back the string.Their arrows went through shields (aspides) and breastplates(thorakes).Whenever they could get hold of them, the Greeks would use these arrows as javelins, fitting them with thongs"

....not 'drawn with the feet', rather, body length bows with the bottom touching the ground, and braced with the left foot.....

To get back on topic:
Tim Mathews wrote:

Is the other Corinthian helmet offered by Depeeka any better. From photos I have seen of these helmets it appears the noses are all joined on from a seperate piece of brass. Some of the brazing stands out. If I were sent something of that quality I would simply send it back.

I have never seen a Deepeeka Corinthian with 'separate' nosepiece brazed/welded on ( or if they are it isn't obvious! )...perhaps you have seen a poorer quality imitation....
The 'earlier' Corinthian called Spartan (AH6111) is also a reasonable shape, but like the Late one,not 100% accurately based on an original....which doesn't matter too much considering that no two original helmets are alike, but all have variations.
An analysis of Deepeeka's Greek helmets can be seen here:

www.imperiumancientarmory.com/Greekhelmets.html

.....however their comment that nose-pieces should be thicker is correct - but 6-10 mm is incorrect. Late Corinthian nose-pieces vary in thickness from 2.75 - 5 mm thick with the majority around 3 mm or so...
(incidently, the price for the Late Corinthian seems to be something of a bargain.)

[Tim Mathews]

Can anyone tell me what aspis emblems were associated with what cities/tribes of Greece?
I am liking the scorpion, bulls head, or the ram head for an emblem.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=6019
Khaire
Giannis

[Tim Mathews]

Thanks Giannis, will read in more detail in a moment.
I have a picture here. I think it is a good image to maybe base a greek kit on, as it has a similar Depekeea 'Italo Corinthian' that could be painted and crest made for it.
The base the helm sits on I presume is a shield, tho not an aspis, is it one with the sides cut out (not sure thr correct name, abit like the one in the movie Troy?)
Does anybody know of any info on this image? Unfortunatley the site I got it from had none

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Careful though,this is not a corinthian,but a chalkiden helmet. Do you see the hinges in the cheek pieces? They are separate. You could paint they deepeeka one though like this and add a high crest to make it a lot better. The shield is the "boeotian" one. Note that the word "aspis" translates as "shield" and not as "hoplite shield".It's a generic term. The vase must be attic of about 500bc but I don't know reference.
Khaire
Giannis

[Tim Mathews]

I have noticed pottery pictures of approx 500BC of the Trojan wars depicting holites wearing corinthians with crests as pictured above, along with these Boetian shields. Are these styles that were worn during the Trojan War period, or more common to the period they were painted in, around 500BC?