Persian heavy cavalry

[Ceasar Augustus]

Hahaha very funny :lol: .

[etruschi]

Yes some small photos of it were already posted here but it would be wonderful to have high resolution photos!


Is there any chance that someone could post a photo of the Khumbuz Tepe heavy cavalryman?

This is a picture of the much spoken by Khumbuz-tepe flask. Some say it's an armoured coat while others (like me) say it's an armoured saddle.
The peculiar round shape of it corresponds much more with the armoured saddle than with one of the 2 ends of an armoured coat. If it would have meant the end of a coat, in my opinion a part of the upper leg would have been visible. This was the case with for example Sarmatian armour and wouldn't have been the same in the case of the flask.
I can't believe the Saka never used scale armour. Scythians and Saka were kins, so scale armour(in the beginning) must have been used. Otherwise we can dismiss all representations made by scholars showing saka in scale armour. We may not forget there was a long time between the khumbuz-tepe flask and the khalchayan sculptures!!!
I won't be surprised if the early Parthian figure on the stone fragment depicts a cavalryman which legs are armoured by some sort of persian armoured saddle which covered the legs entirely. I'm not the only one who is convinced of this fact.
Greetings
philip

[MeinPanzer]

This is a picture of the much spoken by Khumbuz-tepe flask. Some say it's an armoured coat while others (like me) say it's an armoured saddle.
The peculiar round shape of it corresponds much more with the armoured saddle than with one of the 2 ends of an armoured coat. If it would have meant the end of a coat, in my opinion a part of the upper leg would have been visible. This was the case with for example Sarmatian armour and wouldn't have been the same in the case of the flask.

Only in every other depiction of this type of Saka armour that has been found (and again, I've enumerated all of them in that post linked to previously in another thread), except for the Khalchayan cataphract, the coat reaches at least to the knee, and sometimes to the ankles. Even the armour from Khalchayan reaches to just above the knee so that only a sliver of the upper leg is visible, and this is most likely due to the fact that the rider is leaning back.

I can't believe the Saka never used scale armour. Scythians and Saka were kins, so scale armour(in the beginning) must have been used. Otherwise we can dismiss all representations made by scholars showing saka in scale armour. We may not forget there was a long time between the khumbuz-tepe flask and the khalchayan sculptures!!!

According to the evidence, they did not. Can you post some examples of scholarly reconstructions of Saka wearing scale armour? And though there is a long time between the Khumbuz-tepe fragment and the Khalchayan sculptures, we have clear examples of this style of armour from every century in between. Did you even read my post that Sean linked to?

I won't be surprised if the early Parthian figure on the stone fragment depicts a cavalryman which legs are armoured by some sort of persian armoured saddle which covered the legs entirely. I'm not the only one who is convinced of this fact.
Greetings
philip

It may be an armoured saddle, but it could just as easily be armoured chaps. And Sekunda is the only scholar I know who has suggested that these could be parapleuridia, and that is based on scarce information indeed (pretty much one vague mention of the legs of Armenian cataphracts in Plutarch).

I must admit that I don't understand this obsession with parapleuridia and parameridia. We have a handful of clear sources showing armoured saddles from a limited chronological span (the 4th c. BC) and a limited geographical region (Asia Minor), and yet suddenly every kind of leg protection for cavalrymen depicted in art even as far away as Chorasmia is declared parapleuridia.

[gie]

Found this gem on the net. If you see illustrations of these guys their legs are protected by the persian armoured saddle (parapleuridia) and their neck is protected by a high collar. This guy seems to have a collar and a neck protecting flap at the back. I was wondering if by using this flap he would have a complete or a semi -complete (half) collar?
Does anyone have good illustrations of persian heavy cavalry using the parapleuridia?
Greetings
Philip

[Artabanos]

Thanks sitalkes Sean and etruschi for the material.

An armoured coat is interesting but how would it look like? Persians used such coats yes but I can only imagine the ones with an inner mail layer known from Parthian and Sasanian periods.
Achaemenids used scale armour (Saka/Scythians, too), it should be not elastic enough to make an Kandys out of scale armour if you ask me.

It might be just an unarmoured cavalryman with a Kandys, Persian clothing style had often geometric patterns, in this case maybe squares.

Also imo the armoured saddle was a technology developed in Asia Minor and mostly employed by the forces originating from the west. Traditional Persian gear should have been armoured chaps. Also too much of the leg is exposed for an armoured saddle and those ring armour look-alikes are most likely typical Iranic wide cavalry trousers, displayed like that in Iranic art.

regards

[Ceasar Augustus]

Hey gie that picture looks interesting where'd you get it?

[gie]

Hey gie that picture looks interesting where'd you get it?

http://velizariy.kiev.ua/avallon/museum/lic1.htm

The rest of the plates from this page are from Warriors of Eurasia!
I have the rest of the plates but the signiature of the author is a little different:
In Warriors of Eurasia is is M. Gorelik .
In those plates from the site is a M in a circle just as the one from the plate that stated this thread or the next one:


You can spot the M in a circle?
I think this is from a "Russian Warriors of Eurasia" but i have no prove of that!

[MeinPanzer]

Thanks sitalkes Sean and etruschi for the material.

An armoured coat is interesting but how would it look like? Persians used such coats yes but I can only imagine the ones with an inner mail layer known from Parthian and Sasanian periods.
Achaemenids used scale armour (Saka/Scythians, too), it should be not elastic enough to make an Kandys out of scale armour if you ask me.

It might be just an unarmoured cavalryman with a Kandys, Persian clothing style had often geometric patterns, in this case maybe squares.

The coat is known from several other sources as well. If you want to get a general idea of what it looked like, you can just search for coins of the Indo-Saka kings Azes and Spalirises.

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/results.p ... earch=azes

This is a particularly clear example:

http://www.coinarchives.com/a/lotviewer ... 0&Lot=1618

Also imo the armoured saddle was a technology developed in Asia Minor and mostly employed by the forces originating from the west. Traditional Persian gear should have been armoured chaps. Also too much of the leg is exposed for an armoured saddle and those ring armour look-alikes are most likely typical Iranic wide cavalry trousers, displayed like that in Iranic art.

The covering of the leg is almost certainly hoop-armour, like the cheir of Xenophon but for the legs. An actual example of this kind of armour has been found in a 2nd c. BC Bactrian context from Ai Khanoum.

[Ceasar Augustus]

Thanks gie

[etruschi]

I can't believe the Saka never used scale armour. Scythians and Saka were kins, so scale armour(in the beginning) must have been used. Otherwise we can dismiss all representations made by scholars showing saka in scale armour. We may not forget there was a long time between the khumbuz-tepe flask and the khalchayan sculptures!!!

According to the evidence, they did not. Can you post some examples of scholarly reconstructions of Saka wearing scale armour? And though there is a long time between the Khumbuz-tepe fragment and the Khalchayan sculptures, we have clear examples of this style of armour from every century in between. Did you even read my post that Sean linked to?

I won't be surprised if the early Parthian figure on the stone fragment depicts a cavalryman which legs are armoured by some sort of persian armoured saddle which covered the legs entirely. I'm not the only one who is convinced of this fact.
Greetings
philip

It may be an armoured saddle, but it could just as easily be armoured chaps. And Sekunda is the only scholar I know who has suggested that these could be parapleuridia, and that is based on scarce information indeed (pretty much one vague mention of the legs of Armenian cataphracts in Plutarch).

I must admit that I don't understand this obsession with parapleuridia and parameridia. We have a handful of clear sources showing armoured saddles from a limited chronological span (the 4th c. BC) and a limited geographical region (Asia Minor), and yet suddenly every kind of leg protection for cavalrymen depicted in art even as far away as Chorasmia is declared parapleuridia.

Gorelik depicts Saka wearing scale armour and even lamellar armour. If you see the text going with the drawing it mentions Saka.
All Indo-Scythian coins I have seen depict a triangular-shaped iron or leather skirt covering the legs (see black and white drawing). Quite a different shape than the Khumbuz-Tepe fragment, don't you think.
I think there is a bit confusion regarding the name Persian armoured saddle. This wasn't something which was connected to the saddle. It consisted of 2 stiffened armoured chaps connected by a string which rested on the horse's neck. Both chaps were also fastened to the rider's girdle at the back of his body.
Regarding the use of scale armour. We may not forget that most Persian heavy cavalry consisted of Saka warriors. If we agree that this cavalry used scale armour we must agree that the Saka did.
Greetings
Philip

[MeinPanzer]

Gorelik depicts Saka wearing scale armour and even lamellar armour. If you see the text going with the drawing it mentions Saka.

The funny thing about that is that I have all of Gorelik's archaeological publications and I can identify all of the sources for that Saka cavalryman- Kuban-type helmet from Samarkand, leg-protectors from an early Pazyryk burial, shield and horse equipment decoration from another- except for the armour, the source of which Gorelik does not cite in any of his articles or books. I suspect that it is a speculative reconstruction on his part.

All Indo-Scythian coins I have seen depict a triangular-shaped iron or leather skirt covering the legs (see black and white drawing). Quite a different shape than the Khumbuz-Tepe fragment, don't you think.

It does look a bit different, but that is something that can easily be attributed to artistic whim. If you look at the general style of the Chorasmian artisans who decorated these pot sherds (the Khumbuz-tepe fragment is only one of a number, including another depicting an unarmoured lancer cavalryman), all the depictions are heavily stylized.

I think there is a bit confusion regarding the name Persian armoured saddle. This wasn't something which was connected to the saddle. It consisted of 2 stiffened armoured chaps connected by a string which rested on the horse's neck. Both chaps were also fastened to the rider's girdle at the back of his body.

No one actually knows how parapleuridia or parameridia were secured to the wearer's legs. All one can do is speculate, but we can't tell from any depiction of such leg protection just how they were attached to rider or mount.

Regarding the use of scale armour. We may not forget that most Persian heavy cavalry consisted of Saka warriors. If we agree that this cavalry used scale armour we must agree that the Saka did.
Greetings

Stating that "most" heavy Persian cavalry were Saka is incorrect. And concerning this line of reasoning, that's faulty logic if I've ever seen it.

"We may not forget that many Hellenistic mercenaries were Galatian warriors. If we agree that Hellenistic troops wore muscle cuirasses, we must agree that the Galatians did."

[Ceasar Augustus]

I think you've broken the record for longest post :lol: