Massagetean heavy cavalry in Gaugamela?

[aqd]

Hello!

Does anyone have pictures of Massagetean heavy cavalry in Gaugamela? I found some scythian pics, with greek-style scale armour and helmets, or eariler with scale-filled helmets etc... (from osprey's scythian book) Do Massageteans look just like that? :?:

[hoplite14gr]

Try to see what yo ucan get translated in the Tadjikistan excavations.
Very little yet has been trnaslated but imges are good.
Try to google "Professor Serigiannides" if you can.
kind regards.

[MeinPanzer]

Try to see what yo ucan get translated in the Tadjikistan excavations.
Very little yet has been trnaslated but imges are good.
Try to google "Professor Serigiannides" if you can.
kind regards.

What excavations are you referring to in particular, Stefanos?

Does anyone have pictures of Massagetean heavy cavalry in Gaugamela? I found some scythian pics, with greek-style scale armour and helmets, or eariler with scale-filled helmets etc... (from osprey's scythian book) Do Massageteans look just like that? :?:

I can post some pictures later on. Are you looking for reconstructions, or original sources? Based on the evidence which we have, they looked quite different from Scythian heavy horsemen (instead of scale, they wore armour made of large square iron plates, for instance).

Edit: Stefanos, are you referring to V.I. Sarianidi?

[hoplite14gr]

The Moscow Arccheological instute had a large excavation project in the Soviet East from 1978 to 1990.
Some of it was not done after the soviet colapse but some aspects continued with western funding or joint ventures.
Though initially the atifacts were Scythian and other step cultures, the South Uzbekistan and Tadjikistan excavations yielded Persian artifacts. They very first images appeared in soviet books as the one attached.

I saw some articles in newpaper sunday magazines here. Actually they did the article because a Professor in the Institute (of Greek origin)
was lecturing in Thessaloniki.

See attachment from russian book about later Achemenide armies.

Kind regards

[aqd]

I can post some pictures later on. Are you looking for reconstructions, or original sources? Based on the evidence which we have, they looked quite different from Scythian heavy horsemen (instead of scale, they wore armour made of large square iron plates, for instance).

Both are nice Isn't the square plate armour used by eastern Saka tribes? Did Massageteans in battle of Gaugamela wear it too?

See attachment from russian book about later Achemenide armies.

Thanks!

[MeinPanzer]

The Moscow Arccheological instute had a large excavation project in the Soviet East from 1978 to 1990.
Some of it was not done after the soviet colapse but some aspects continued with western funding or joint ventures.
Though initially the atifacts were Scythian and other step cultures, the South Uzbekistan and Tadjikistan excavations yielded Persian artifacts. They very first images appeared in soviet books as the one attached.

I saw some articles in newpaper sunday magazines here. Actually they did the article because a Professor in the Institute (of Greek origin)
was lecturing in Thessaloniki.

See attachment from russian book about later Achemenide armies.

Kind regards

Many aspects of these reconstructions are outdated and, to be frank, either fantastical or wrong. Just to pick one particular example, in the second image, the helmet that's paired with the bronze gorget is decorated in a style which fell out of fashion around the 7th c. BC; the other helmet is a rare example of an eastern Kuban-type helmet which comes from Samarkand, but it dates to the 6th c. BC.

Both are nice Isn't the square plate armour used by eastern Saka tribes? Did Massageteans in battle of Gaugamela wear it too?

If the Massagetae were not actually Saka (and such debates over whether a particular tribe belonged to a particular ethnic group always end up being fruitless, since the ancients employed terms like Saka, Celt, German, etc. flexibly, and the boundaries between different groups were always blurry), then they were at least very strongly influenced by the Saka.

Most sources place them to the East or Southeast of Chorasmia, and we have these two sources from in and around Chorasmia:

A pottery fragment from Khumbuz-tepe in Chorasmia, which is the earliest depiction of a man riding a fully armoured horse. It dates to the 4th-3rd c. BC. Note the large quadrangular plates composing the armour, the segmented leg armour, and the depiction of a quiver with a bow in it slung on the other side of the saddle.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... uztepe.JPG

Then there is the find from Chirik Rabat of a burial which included many rectangular plates along with segmented limb armour, a long sword, and arrowheads, all iron. This is from just east of Chorasmia and likewise dates to the 4th-3rd c. BC. Note that the reconstruction in this image is definitely suspect.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... krabat.JPG

And to get an idea of what the upper body of a warrior like this would look like, here is a bronze figurine from Taraz, in Kazakhstan, a good distance to the east. Sorry for the bad quality of the image.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/taraz1.JPG
http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/images/taraz2.JPG

And here is a general impression of a Saka cavalryman of the 4th-3rd c. BC made by M.V. Gorelik. It is primarily based on the evidence posted above, along with a few other items from the Siberian collection of Peter I, the weapons from the burial of the "Golden Man" from Issyk, and a few others. There are a few problems with it, I think, like the skirt should be longer, and I'm dubious of the segmented arm armour reaching only to the elbow, but it is overall very good.

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... orelik.JPG

Hope this helps!

[bachmat66]

Dr Olbrycht in his book 'Alexander and the Iranian World,' says (p 144-145) that S.P. Tolstov reconstruction is wrong regarding the protection of hips and sides (aroudn his waist) - he goes with messer Gorelik reconstruction of these rounded plates as arms and shoulder protections and neck guard - as in the watercolor drawing you published).
Dr Gorelik produced this article titled 'Saksjij dospech' (Armor of the Sakas) where various forms of protective gear, including interesting belts, are discussed and there are drawings. scan down the page http://www.nsu.ru/aw/showBiblio.do?acti ... letterId=4
Other images - the terracotta from Koy-Krihglan-kala in Uzbekistan there is a kontophoroi - lancer, with pointed bashlik headgear and holding a lance with both hands parallel to the ground at the waist level, as the Sarmatians later on.
The Taraz piece is very interesting, sort of along the Orlat plate, except that the hip protection appears to be shorter -
I have some Russian language articles regarding the times and area so I will look for some info amongst them - meantime do peruse the website - http://kronk.narod.ru/library.htm
Saka warrior armament http://militera.lib.ru/h/korolev_k/13.gif
Pazyrskij Saka http://history.novosibdom.ru/files/u9/sibir_85.jpg
Armor from the Altai V-III century BC http://new.hist.asu.ru/skif/fotos/pub/051.gif

[MeinPanzer]

Dr Olbrycht in his book 'Alexander and the Iranian World,' says (p 144-145) that S.P. Tolstov reconstruction is wrong regarding the protection of hips and sides (aroudn his waist) - he goes with messer Gorelik reconstruction of these rounded plates as arms and shoulder protections and neck guard - as in the watercolor drawing you published).

The problem is that the remains of armour are so limited that we can't really say much of anything about how they were assembled other than through comparison with iconographic sources. The long, wide plate which Tolstov took to be some sort of side flap (he never explained his reconstruction as far as I have been able to tell), and which Gorelik took to be either a portion of the collar or a wide belt-plate (he reconstructs the panoply as including both), is so fragmentary that we can't say much of anything other than it measured at minimum 9x12 cm.

Other images - the terracotta from Koy-Krihglan-kala in Uzbekistan there is a kontophoroi - lancer, with pointed bashlik headgear and holding a lance with both hands parallel to the ground at the waist level, as the Sarmatians later on.

That Kroi-Kylgan-kala terracotta fragment is very interesting, but I am dubious of any claim that it shows a two-handed lancer. The problem lies in the reproduction of the sherd. If you take this reproduction:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... nkala2.JPG

It looks like the rider is holding the spear with both his right arm and his extended left arm. However, if you look at this reproduction:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... nkala1.JPG

It seems that what appeared previously to be his left arm is instead a portion of the reins, and that his left arm instead runs behind the horse's neck. Both are from Tolstov's publications. I am inclined to take the latter image as the more precise, since it was published later and seems to have been rendered with more care.

There is also this sherd from the same site:

http://www.antiquemilitaryhistory.com/i ... nkala3.JPG

Which is interesting because it shows that the Chorasmians A) wore their daggers strapped to the thigh very early, before it spread throughout just about the entire Iranian-speaking world, and B) that they decorated their horse furniture with phalerae well before it became widespread. Also neat to note that the dagger is very similar to contemporary Sauromation examples.

The Taraz piece is very interesting, sort of along the Orlat plate, except that the hip protection appears to be shorter -

The reason the skirt is shorter is because this figure was supposed to ride a separately-cast horse, and the artisan seems to have made his upper body quite a bit larger than his legs, so it appears to be very short.

I have some Russian language articles regarding the times and area so I will look for some info amongst them - meantime do peruse the website - http://kronk.narod.ru/library.htm
Saka warrior armament http://militera.lib.ru/h/korolev_k/13.gif
Pazyrskij Saka http://history.novosibdom.ru/files/u9/sibir_85.jpg
Armor from the Altai V-III century BC http://new.hist.asu.ru/skif/fotos/pub/051.gif

Maybe you could help me with this. I've seen Solov'ev's reconstruction of an armoured Pazyryk warrior before, but what is his source? I've done a lot of research on Pazyryk warrior burials, consulting many Russian sources, but I've yet to find an example of scale armour which has been discovered in the Altai between the 5th and 3rd c. BC. The only example I know if is a tiny plate dating from the 7th-6th c. BC which Gorelik published in his "Oruzhie Drevnego Vostoka" (Pl. LVI, 12). What evidence are those reconstructions of cuirasses based on?

[hoplite14gr]

I admit that central Asia is not "my cap of tea".
Ruben, If I understd correct you belive that the recostructed troops are dated earlier than the 4th century B.C. right?

Also one question: do you belive that they are under-equiped or over-equiped?

Kind regards

[MeinPanzer]

I admit that central Asia is not "my cap of tea".
Ruben, If I understd correct you belive that the recostructed troops are dated earlier than the 4th century B.C. right?

Also one question: do you belive that they are under-equiped or over-equiped?

Kind regards

In the first plate, the akinakes and sagaris are unlike any I have ever seen before, and seem to be wholly fantastical. For the rest, the figures are reasonably, save for the solid bronze horse armour and parameridia on his mount!

If that second plate of reconstructions is meant to represent troops and equipment of Darius III, as the label states, then:

The helmets are much too early.

The sword is from the right time period, but is a Saka long sword based on the Issyk finds - there is no evidence that I am aware of that Persians employed such swords.

The cavalryman is entirely fantastical. He wears a quilted cuirass with what appear to be solid bronze yokes and a Scythian-style armoured belt! On top of that he carries a shield, despite the fact that Achaemenid cavalry almost certainly did not carry shields at this time (and if they did, it wouldn't be an aspis like he's carrying).

My Russian is not spectacular, but if I read it correctly, that infantryman is supposed to be a Greek Cardaces soldier, in which case I am firstly stupefied by the name, and then by the combination of a 4th c. BC Greek helmet type with the earlier Boeotian-type shield (can't remember what the name for it is in Persian use).

[PMBardunias]

Saka long sword based on the Issyk finds

Years ago I saw the traveling exibit of "Skythian Gold." There was a sword there that they call "Cimmerian" if I recall that looked nothing like an Akinakes. It was long, with a cruciform hilt, and genrally did not conform to my expectations of an early central asians sword, never mind Cimmerian. Do you guys by any chance know of this sword?

[MeinPanzer]

Saka long sword based on the Issyk finds

Years ago I saw the traveling exibit of "Skythian Gold." There was a sword there that they call "Cimmerian" if I recall that looked nothing like an Akinakes. It was long, with a cruciform hilt, and genrally did not conform to my expectations of an early central asians sword, never mind Cimmerian. Do you guys by any chance know of this sword?

I'm not very familiar with Cimmerian artefacts, but I have seen several examples of Cimmerian swords from the northern Black Sea. They do look very odd - much more like medieval longswords than ancient examples. The swords and daggers usually referred to as Scythian only began to emerge in the heart of the Central Asian steppes around the 8th c. BC with their distinctive style, and so the Cimmerian swords seem to be a separate "dead end" that preceded them.

[PMBardunias]

They do look very odd - much more like medieval longswords than ancient examples.

That is exactly what it looked like- so much so I had doubts about its authenticity. I'm glad to know it probably was real, I wish I had an image to share, it was a real treat to see. My poor wife had to pry me away. Anyone have good sources on Cimmerians? (other than R. E. Howard)

[MeinPanzer]

They do look very odd - much more like medieval longswords than ancient examples.

That is exactly what it looked like- so much so I had doubts about its authenticity. I'm glad to know it probably was real, I wish I had an image to share, it was a real treat to see. My poor wife had to pry me away. Anyone have good sources on Cimmerians? (other than R. E. Howard)

If you don't mind a little French, Iaroslav Lebedynsky's "Les Cimmériens : les premiers nomades des steppes europénnes, IXe-VIIe siècle av. J.-C." is probably the best and most up-to-date introduction out there today. I've not seen it, but Lebedynsky's been putting out some excellent works on steppe nomads recently (general titles about the Scythians, Saka, Sarmatians, and an excellent survey of nomadic swords and daggers from the 1st millennium BC until the last few centuries) which are the absolute best introductory literature out there that's not in Russian.

[bachmat66]

I have some Russian language articles regarding the times and area so I will look for some info amongst them - meantime do peruse the website - http://kronk.narod.ru/library.htm
Saka warrior armament http://militera.lib.ru/h/korolev_k/13.gif
Pazyrskij Saka http://history.novosibdom.ru/files/u9/sibir_85.jpg
Armor from the Altai V-III century BC http://new.hist.asu.ru/skif/fotos/pub/051.gif

Maybe you could help me with this. I've seen Solov'ev's reconstruction of an armoured Pazyryk warrior before, but what is his source? I've done a lot of research on Pazyryk warrior burials, consulting many Russian sources, but I've yet to find an example of scale armour which has been discovered in the Altai between the 5th and 3rd c. BC. The only example I know if is a tiny plate dating from the 7th-6th c. BC which Gorelik published in his "Oruzhie Drevnego Vostoka" (Pl. LVI, 12). What evidence are those reconstructions of cuirasses based on?

Czolem,
I am not sure I caa help but about the source used for the Saka Chief in the reconstruction above:
Soloviev says that he used the royal Pazirik burials, form Verh-Kaljin kurgan, and generally from the finds in the kurgans of Ukok Plateu - lately Polosmak, the author fof Pazirik costume book, wrote her book about that titled Vsadniki Ukoka, I unfortunately do not have the book, only read about it.
Anyway, Solov'ev writes that Altai warriors used mostly felt, wood and bone for their armor, and that did not survive well or at all, but that they were influenced by the metal armor from China and from Central Asia, Chorezm etc. This particular warriors is based on the Paziirk kurgans, Ulandrik, and from the Akh-Allah river valley. The reddish-golden cuirass is made out of rectangular copper plates tied with leather thongs as seen the Chinese armor tradition, sort of shown in the Gorbunov article.

this is the whole article Gorbunov about the armor of the Upper Altai in the early Iron Age - http://new.hist.asu.ru/skif/pub/skep/GORBYUNOV.HTML
interesting article by Polosmak about warrior helmet from Altai, seen in the Solov'ev reconstruction http://new.hist.asu.ru/skif/pub/skep/pol.html

I have a reconstruction of a Massagetaen warrior drawn and described in detail by an archaeologist whose book may be published next year, and the reconstruction itself is a big compilation of the archaeological finds and iconographic sources, I did a drawing of it so I could show it here with all the notes regarding what is what etc (got to prepare it etc). Orlat plate plays not a small role there. But also all the sources you shown above as well.
Hope it helps