Copyright Shield Designs ?

[Paullus Scipio]

Hi Robert !

Well, David put it like I had in mind, with the shiueld as the recognised trademark of a group: ..........................

But if the shield design was used as a group trademark, that would (like David says) be a different matter.

That was the very point I was trying to make ( and evidently failing, judging by the other posts ! )

Copyright, Trade marks, and Patents are not the same thing at all, nor even similar !
Trade marks and Patents have complex laws governing them which vary from country to country, but broadly speaking, Patents cover inventions and need be considered no further, and Trade Marks are of a commercial nature, used to identify a commercial product, must be registered in a given country, and have complex rules of distinctiveness/uniqueness that would rule out registering a known Trajan's column design, or even any recognisable variation of one ( though a Trade Mark might incorporate a shield design as part of the Mark....too complex!)

Registering Patents and Trade Marks is an expensive process and must be handled by professional experts, and even looking at the brief points above, one must see that David's suggestion is just not feasible.

I'll re-iterate, even ignoring the distasteful moral and ethical difficulties of trying to "own" some part the past, neither Copyright, Trade Marks nor Patents offer a practical, or even any solution to Madoc's problem........


edit: I started my response before Arklore's response, but I would endorse everything he says....so that makes four lawyers views, having said which all posts by me are subject to the disclaimer I set out above.....get specific legal advice for the particular situation of your legal dispute.....

[Robbie Phillips]

) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )
Arklore's information reminded me about the story of the fellow that was the first to design/use the round-yellow happy face for his company in the 60's or '70's. He failed to officially copyright the design and it began to show up elsewhere such as Wal-Mart. AFAIK, he had no legal standing due to the length of time out in public use. (Public Domain)

[Eadseig]

Madoc;
I believe there's a concept in law called "passing off"; offering goods or a service so that the buyer thinks they are getting the well known product when what they are really getting a near copy. Look at the colours on the labels of supermarket own brand detergents and washing powders and compare them to the brands they copy. Nearly identical. If Tesco can get away with it, you haven't got a chance.
The only way you can take action is if someone pretends to be something they are not, so hanging around a group dressed as one of their members and taking bookings for your events would be naughty. Beating up MOPs wearing gear that is a distinctive mark of a group would also be actionable, but I doubt you'd get far trying to prevent people using a design from a public monument. You could argue that the colours in the design are a distinctive mark of a group, but I'd suggest it would be n expensive battle to fight, even if you won.

Neil

[Robert]

Good grief! This reminds me of a "little" clash I had with Hibernicus, who eventualy pleaded to have the thread removed, as fur flew. I have just sent Edge, Peronis, Jurjen and all who want it a laurel wreath design I have drawn myself and which turned out nicely. It was based on Trajans Column and intended for aux shield use. If copyright struggles and strife enter the re-enactment community, perhaps it is time to wonder whether we are not taking things and our pompous ego's a bit too seriously. Lets share knowledge and good will and even the odd shielddesign. Chances are they got it wrong, anyhow :lol: .

[Marcus Iulius Chattus]

Here in germany, we have a auxillarygroup, that was founded by members who left another group. The old group took legal action against the new group as they thought that the new group used there old name and there shield design!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Good grief! This reminds me of a "little" clash I had with Hibernicus, who eventualy pleaded to have the thread removed, as fur flew. I have just sent Edge, Peronis, Jurjen and all who want it a laurel wreath design I have drawn myself and which turned out nicely. It was based on Trajans Column and intended for aux shield use. If copyright struggles and strife enter the re-enactment community, perhaps it is time to wonder whether we are not taking things and our pompous ego's a bit too seriously. Lets share knowledge and good will and even the odd shielddesign. Chances are they got it wrong, anyhow :lol: .

Yes that sounds right to me!

[Robert]

Marcus, don't keep us hanging! Who won and why? :lol: I mean it, want my design, ask (PM with regular e-mail adress) and it will be digitaly shared. I applaud Peronis for his sharing out the Batavian design, may others follow. I also applaud Legio XX, they share all, designs, methods of production and do the RAT community credit by their efforts.

[richsc]

however, if it is using common symbols of the period such as the cresent moons, thunderbolts, and other common symbols of the era

Isn't that called Prior Art?

I also applaud Legio XX, they share all, designs, methods of production and do the RAT community credit by their efforts.

You have Matt Amt's leadership to thank for that.
In fact, if someone copied our designs, and I think I've seen that around, it only means folks agree with us about the interpretation.
I think about the only thing you can really try to control is images of your faces, since that's pretty well understood. Even photos of your scabbards, helmets etc since they're all based on archaeological finds, are probably open.
Which is probably also why the film industry has original costuming since that can be copyrighted as intellectual property. The helmets in Gladiator cannot be reproduced without permission, for example.

[Magnus]

Which is probably also why the film industry has original costuming since that can be copyrighted as intellectual property. The helmets in Gladiator cannot be reproduced without permission, for example.

I never thought of it that way Rich...your'e probably right!

[M. Demetrius]

The helmets in Gladiator cannot be reproduced without permission, for example

Why would we want to? :?: :!:

You may well be right about the proprietary armor, etc. Always looking ahead to post production licensed sales, then. Yep. Makes sense.

[Tarbicus]

I think the simple answer is to look at photos of actual designs on Roman shields in original Roman art, choose and draw one you like, and use that for your shield pattern.

If another group has copied your design after a split (going back to the original question), try and make up with them and join up for larger gatherings and events. We're all adults.

But if the reason they split is because they want to wear Trooper helms, spit on them as they walk past :wink:

[Lochinvar]

Hi John,
This forum must surely be the most widely read and, dare I say it, authoritative for Roman reenactment.

Looking on as a layman, clearly (and you have shown that you recognise this) a Trajan's column design is open to all. However, it is the exact styling and colour scheme (ie, the modern interpretation) which you lay claim to...and that doesn't seem unreasonable to me.

Have you tried writing to this individual, perhaps recognising his/her right to go his own way but asking him to alter his colours enough to prevent confusion between the groups. 'Manners maketh man'.

Why not show the original (and by that I mean your original) here, explaining clearly who it belongs to?
Then everyone will know who the imposters are when they next see that design out of context.

Good luck.

[M. Demetrius]

Yes indeed. You've let the cat only partway out of the bag. Good device for raising suspense levels and stimulating our curiosity, though. Hats off for that!

[Hibernicus]

It is, at the very least, rude to copy another club's shield device.

Ask.

I've been asked by folks in Britain and Spain if they can use our shield device and we gave permission. The group in Spain has chosen to use a blue background.

The real and serious problem arises when the device is broadly recognized as belonging to or representing a specific Club and under that circumstance a third party believes that they are contracting with the original owner when instead they are talking with a copycat. Even if no money is involved there can be other legal issues.

I believe that I've made this sugestion before: RAT is the ideal organization to be a sort of "Herald" for Roman re-enactment... in a passive advisory role of course... a place to "register" a shield device to make it easier for new clubs and groups to avoid copycatting. Establish a club shield design database...

[M. Demetrius]

What about the 14th GMV scutum blazon? It's the same one that's the "standard" Deepeeka version. If some group starts, say the 11th something or other and chooses to use that shield, is that a problem?

If I'm not mistaken, Dan Peterson got DP to make that design, based on his understanding of the 14th design from grave stelae and other sources. That's his group's design, so to speak, but other groups use it because it's out there. Some buy the shields, some paint their own. Deepeeka doesn't seem to mind if a group either uses that design or paints one identical to it, and they have dollars to lose over the copies.

There's probably 50 distinct design elements on TC, and hundreds of ways to arrange them on a shield. What if someone came up with a "copy" of some modern reenacment unit's blazon entirely by accident? Would the older version have some kind of priority on the design? Wouild they be expected to change all their scuta to suit the wishes of the prior group's claim? I'm not trying to start a fight here, just wondering.