Copyright mess at APX, Germany

[Robert]

Salve Omnes,

As a foundation, we recently had a rather nasty brush with the LVR, Public Relations department, owners of the park at Xanten, Germany. We took pictures of the Legio II Avg group and some displays they had made during the event two years ago. As an illustration of things to come in our own park, we posted them on the Noviolocus website, feeling no harm in showing photographs we took ourselves of a group that was a guest there. They claimed copyright to any and all pictures taken within the boundaries of their park, forbidding the use of these pictures. We researched this claim under German law, and it seems valid for the buildings they have erected. We however feel strongly about the claiming of copyright of the intellectual ownership of those pictures by third parties showing groups performing and the displays they host.
The costs and research (and these are high, as I know from experience, having researched, manufactured and assembled through purchase a full Roman kit myself) of the costumes and the actual rehearsed performance have been borne by the groups and individuals concerned, no compensation or support in developing or purchase of the clothing, uniforms, weapons, performance and like have been offered by LVR or APX. Claiming intellectual ownership just on the basis of providing a place/backdrop to perform in our view exceeds the reasonable. I would welcome opinions on this issue.

[Tarbicus]

As an illustration of things to come in our own park,

I think it's obvious that what got their noses out of joint was you are actually using their buildings to promote your own planned competitive endeavour. In a way, fair enough I'm afraid. If someone planned to promote their own matte painting business using a photo of themselves stood in front of one of my paintings, I'd go absolutely ape shit.

[Robert Vermaat]

I'm with Jim here Robert. If you had used pictures from English or French parks there would hardly have been a soul who'd have raised an eyebrow. But your park will cost them money..

You should have made the buildings 'invisible' or mabe have altered them in some way.

Now Xanten, where the Roman event is concerned, is very much into legal details when it comes to participating groups. So I expect they know their stuff. I bet all the re-enactment groups pictured on their website have signed away that copyright!! :?
Look here if you can find people that you know!

Were the pictures shot during those events? then maybe Leg II AVG is also in trouble...

[Praefectusclassis]

What is interesting, perhaps, is that I at least do not remember any notice about that. And think how many people go in there on those days with a (video)camera in hand?

[Robert]

I do agree with you both on the matter of buildings, this copyright is well established and we complied with their demand immediatly. No one is in trouble, cause we removed all other Xanten pictures of groups or their displays, such as a cooking stand and a table with foodstuffs.
The claiming of copyright for the last category of pictures (don't forget we visited Xanten as paying visitors) is in my view a bridge too far, but then again, if copyright to all and any exhibition was signed away, they may even have had in point in this respect

[Robert]

Jasper has a point, there is no sign, but even if there is no sign forbidding the taking of pictures, they can still claim copyright and have pictures in places or on sites they don't like them removed or demand payment for their use. Even of the groups performing there and putting those pictures on their own site.

[Praefectusclassis]

Hrmpf, sounds weird. Can't very well copyright grass if nothing else is visible, can they? Well, I guess that if I go somewhere to an event to take photos for a report in Ancient Warfare, I better clear it up front.

[Felix Canus]

Perhaps the issue is using the photos for a promotional purposes rather than private use. It's likely that there would be no grounds for argument if you put the images in (for example) a photobucket album and then linked to it as a personal site. But I'd verify it first.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I think international copyright laws still require at least seven points of difference before an item is considered adequately different. Seven (or more) points of difference are fast and easy to achieve in Photoshop. After all, it's the general "feel" you're trying to convey, yes? Even heavily altered images would still serve that purpose.

[Cornelius Quintus]

Ave Robert,

copyright law protects an artist’s work which has a somewhat high level of artistically quality.

For a show or concert it’s clearer to understand. Anything what happens on the stage might be the ‘performance’ of the organizer. No doubt: when you’re sitting on a tree outside a big concert of a famous pop star and film the show with your camera, you violate copyright law concerning the show. If you only take a photograph of a garbage can on the same site, it will be different.

A park like Xanten can claim a copyright on their buildings (the made them), reconstructions and ‘ambiente’. Of course also regarding the ‘shows’ and action there, as far as the re-enactors are part of their performance. I doubt that they can claim a copyright, if two re-enactors are visiting the park, paying their tickets and one of them takes a close shot of the other (without anything but grass visible in the background).

I also doubt that a museum can claim copyright only for property of an item which is an artwork, but copyright has gone because the creator of the artwork is dead since two thousand years.

Robert, in your case you seem to (partially) show their buildings and athmosphere and use it in a business competition context. That also may touch another law which protects fair business and prohibits to use a companies activity for advertising purposes of your own company and make the common customer believe that these might be photographs about your (!) business.

[Robert Vermaat]

Robert, Wim/Cordvus assures me that LegIIAvg has never been to APX. So which picture are you referring to? That of the mass charge? That's shot in Archeon, 2004 if I'm not mistaken.

If not, can you tell me which picture they are angry about? Or have you already removed it?

[Robert]

Must have got my bearings crossed on Avgusta then. :oops: I took quite a few pictures, one showing a band of Romans at the pompa with no Xanten buildings visible. Still, they insisted on its removal (we complied in the end). The other pictures I was unsure about were either of Legio X or an English group. Those were just showing the table and the cooking stand (and Xanten grass).
My post was meant more as a caution on copyright at APX, as we were most surprised at the claiming of any and all photographs. The case which could arise is if you took pictures of your own displays at Xanten (not showing their buildings, they have a valid point there) and made them available for showing to any initiative, be it commercial or not, with which you sympathise, this would be considered illegal.
On your remark as to us costing them money (should we EVER get the park of the ground, struggling to find a good location :? D through cross-selling, if they would be willing to put up regular well done gladiator shows in their very nice arena.

[Robert Vermaat]

I took quite a few pictures, one showing a band of Romans at the pompa with no Xanten buildings visible. Still, they insisted on its removal (we complied in the end). The other pictures I was unsure about were either of Legio X or an English group. Those were just showing the table and the cooking stand (and Xanten grass).

If you want, I'll 'chnage' them in no time for you!

On your remark as to us costing them money (should we EVER get the park of the ground, struggling to find a good location :? ), I very much doubt that. Our park would be totally different, we do not wish to replicate buildings shown in either Xanten nor Archeon, this as a direct result as NOT wanting to enter into competition but offering different things at different places.

Erm.. isn't that a bit naive? Your park would be an archaeological park with a Roman theme - just like APX! That you'd show different buildings matters not, you'd be attracting the same crowd. Anyway, I guess that's how they see it.

Xanten could actually benefit through cross-selling, if they would be willing to put up regular well done gladiator shows in their very nice arena.

Well, they might and they might not. They might fear that Dutch tourists that drive on to Xanten might not want to drive that far when something quite similar (in the eyes of Common Joe) was 60 kms closer to home.

or something.

But you're right, first let's get that park of yours open!

[Robert]

Thanks for the offer, Robert. No need to change them, not much you can do to a cooking stand, I guess. I would love to recieve pictures we could use, though, taken elswere and no hassle on copyright. Sorry we are not into late Romans. :? Period is early Empire, late 1ste century.
You may be right me being a bit naive thinking the Dutch public would drive another 60 k to view a great stretch of Roman city wall, a nice amphitheater, a very well done mansio and a beautifully made gate (many visitors never get to that gate, it seems, lousy signposting and considered to long a walk ) . Noviolocus will revolve around the castellum, the shipyard with docks (if we get a spot with anough water), the vicus, the temple and the villa.
Problem with the people running Xanten is the place looks and feels as dead and dreary as a doornail. Interest in Roman history is high, though and a nice day out in for example an amusementpark or zoo invites a visit to another, somewhat different park.

[Robert Vermaat]

I wonder how APX recognised the pictures as taken there, when you only see APX grass.. (which, as we all know, is greener than grass in orther AP's...).

You may be right me being a bit naive thinking the Dutch public would drive another 60 k to view a great stretch of Roman city wall, a nice amphitheater, a very well done mansio and a beautifully made gate (many visitors never get to that gate, it seems, lousy signposting and considered to long a walk ) .

Not at all. That was just about that you though APX would not see you as a competitor. Because you will be!

[Robert]

In the case of the cooking stand and table, they presumed they were taken there and added them to their "Remove or suffer the consequenses" - list. Probably had pictures of their own, they were nice displays by that group. Wish I could remember which one. I checked the picture, it shows part of a shield with cover, the emblem of the group is the wild boar.
Yes, I suppose you are right, we will provide fierce competition with all the animation and shows if they remain as boring as they are now :twisted: , but we had hoped to work together with them to improve the product to mutual gain.
Perhaps time for the Roman world along the Rhine to desend on Nijmegen and make them allow us to build the park in the Waalsprong. Have a nice spot picked! They (Nijmegen) cancelled this year's Roman event, by the way, saying it was Xanten's turn. Pressure was applied ....... :x