Decurion

[QFirmus]

Thanks one and all,

I was not looking for a rank or position as such (lord knows there are WAY to many cheifs and not enough native americans/first peoples around the reenactment side) But wondering if there was a name like "squad" leader, whether or not he had any real authority of not or any special privilege of not (besides being the guy to get chewed out I suppose).

Of course with only Vegetius and 19th century sources, I am leary of any name, but I agree with the idea (not the same as hard evidence, though I think Jasper's comment is in the vein) that there would be practical reasons for a go to guy--getting rations for the 8 guys, being the communication point for details, etc, but that that guy had a position with a name is another story I guess.

Thanks again,

[brennivs - tony drake]

Sorry Matthew :oops: forgot to mention that as well
Regards Brennivs

[jespah2000]

Barker's 'The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome' (1972), p. 8 may be another place where wikipedia got its information from, as he follows Vegetius' claim that a decurion (Vegetius' decanus)was in charge of each contubernium. I find that this view also tends to slip into other interpretations of the decurion and his role in the army (for instance Tomlin's 1998 analysis of manuscripts from Carlisle), based largely on the argument of "what else would these guys do?!"... but all that being said, as Hassell pointed out in his review of the Barker's book, this hypothesis is entirely unsubstantiated outside of Vegetius!

Even so, even in Vegetius (and Barker and Tomlinson, etc.) this rank seems to be confined entirely to the cavalry... and as far as I'm aware all the inscriptional evidence for the rank (from Carlisle, there are also some papyri for the cohors XX Palmyrenorum, etc.) also refer only to cavalry units... so even taking Vegetius at face value, unless you were in a contubernium of eques, you wouldn't have a decurion in charge of you!

[jc02005]

A decurion was a cavalry officer in command of a troop or turma of thirty soldiers in the army of the Roman Empire. A Decurion was also in the first century AD a commander of a Decuria; an eight man group sleeping in the same tent.

There were 120 cavalry in an Ala (auxiliary cohort) of a legion. There were four decurions, each commanding thirty men.

In the infantry, the rank carried less prestige — a 'decurion' only led a squad called a contubernium or "tent group" of eight men — but they were still allowed to carry a pugio or dagger as a sign of their rank

[Matthew Amt]

A decurion was a cavalry officer in command of a troop or turma of thirty soldiers in the army of the Roman Empire. A Decurion was also in the first century AD a commander of a Decuria; an eight man group sleeping in the same tent.

There were 120 cavalry in an Ala (auxiliary cohort) of a legion. There were four decurions, each commanding thirty men.

In the infantry, the rank carried less prestige — a 'decurion' only led a squad called a contubernium or "tent group" of eight men — but they were still allowed to carry a pugio or dagger as a sign of their rank

Um, you really need to go back to the first page of this discussion, of which the first post is an exact quote of what you just said--quoted directly from Wikipedia! And then we spent 2 pages of good research and discussion tearing the statement apart. The bit about the pugio is especially ridiculous...

I'm not sure why most of your posts seem to be Wikipedia quotes, but someone has to point out to you that the vast majority of Wikipedia's information on the Roman Army is deeply flawed and filled with errors. You are really not going to learn anything there. We'll be happy to answer questions that you have on most any (Roman) subject, but it will help if you READ what we say. Most of us would recommend getting a few good books and reading them, too--they may still have errors here and there, but they are much better sources of information.

Bottom line, many of us here on RAT have MUCH better information already than you will ever find on Wikipedia, so there isn't much point in quoting that to debate with us.

Thanks!

Matthew

[Felix]

I remember reading somewhere that decurion was also used as a title for what amounted to the civilian town councilmen in the Late Empire.

Not just the Late empire, Hugh. The civic elite of any Roman city were organised as an ordo decurionum. Inscriptions (e.g. ILS 6121 from Canusium, Italy) suggest that there might be up to 100 decurions.

Incidentally, Joseph of Arimathea was supposed to have been a decurion. I imagine that was a civilian title; the thought of Joseph as a Roman soldier is a little mind-boggling.