Decurion

[QFirmus]

Hey I found this at Wikipedia...

A decurion was a cavalry officer in command of a troop or turma of thirty soldiers in the army of the Roman Empire. A Decurion was also in the first century AD a commander of a Decuria; an eight man group sleeping in the same tent.

There were 120 cavalry in an Ala (auxiliary cohort) of a legion. There were four decurions, each commanding thirty men.

In the infantry, the rank carried less prestige — a 'decurion' only led a squad called a contubernium or "tent group" of eight men — but they were still allowed to carry a pugio or dagger as a sign of their rank.

I know they are not without controversy, but I am trying to substantiate it the idea about a decurion also being an infantry "rank," at least in the 1st century. I have found nothing in the few books I have checked at home and a search on here had too many hits...

Any idea

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Interesting tho'

[QFirmus]

Yeah I can find it over and over again online, decurion is the leader of the 8 man conterbernium, but none of my books mention it being an infantry rank or title. Seems someone has said it somewhere, otherwise why would it get so much airplay.

Anyways, I search and any help would be great.

Thanks,
Alan

[Dagann]

From what i remember (it's a long time ago i have read about this, so i can be wrong) about the leader of the conterbernium is chosen (don't remember): by his comrads or the centurion for his experience.
I'm not sure if he was called decurion, but i think depiste is rank, he was not an officer and nothing distinguished from other soldiers (not the salary, not the pugio that every legionary carry).

It only brings a little prestige.

Anyway, let's wait for the true experts to give a precise answer.

[brennivs - tony drake]

Qfirmvs this seams a bit gobly gook :?:
The first section is what :?: The Decurian would still be in charge of his 30 troopers divided amongst the tents.
The next section the 120 cavalry were citizen not auxiliery ie Tiberivs Cladivs Maximvs from Trajans column.
The third bit is undiscriable .The rank of Decvrian is a cavalry rank only and has nothing to do with the infantry :?:
There are some excellent books on the structure of the Cavalry I can list them if you want
Regards Brennivs

[QFirmus]

Thanks Tony,

I am actually just trying to ascertain if the man chosen as the leader/go to guy of the 8 men was referred to as a decurion in the infantry. I knew it was not a officer rank or even non com (though I forgot they were slected by his mess meates), just trying to find out if that is the name given.

Thanks for the offer on the cav, but I'll pass, can't get my kit up to snuff as it is and certainly can't afford a horse!

Thanks again

[brennivs - tony drake]

Qfirmvs a Decurian is the rank of a Centurian in the infantry but comands only 30 troopers against 80 of the infantry so will have the same respect of a infantry officer
Regards Brennivs

[QFirmus]

Do you mean he is a centurian in the CAV who only commands 30?

:?:

[brennivs - tony drake]

Thats right except he is called Decurian.
Regards Brennivs

[QFirmus]

My real interest is not in the cavalry, but what if any the name is of the man elected to represent/lead his conterbernium?

It is not even referred to in Cowan, Connelly or Goldworthy and I am out of books to check that might have the term (if it even exist). Other sites list the same explanation as wikipedia, but since there is a senatorial poistion and since it's root is "ten" it seems it is explained as an officer who governs ten men...(8 soldiers and two slaves?)

I was suprised that is was even used to explain an infantry "position/rank" as I did understand it as a cavalry term, but now I am wondering if there was a term that was used in the infantry.

And that is my question.

Thanks one and all

[QFirmus]

Maybe it's Decanus that is being conflated with Cerurion?

Still searching for arcane trivia but I may be closer (Is this self talk if no one is listenng hock: ?)

[brennivs - tony drake]

I think I understand what you are after,a Conterbernium is just 8 men, they live/sleep in the same tent or barrick room no one is in charge of the tent/barrick it is just some where to sleep the Centurian/Decurian is in overale charge of each conterbernium.I have not come across any referance of a title of someone in charge of it ,but you can bet someone always trys to run the show
Regards Brennivs

[QFirmus]

opps I meant, Maybe it's Decanus that is being conflated with Decurion?

[QFirmus]

found my answer once I knew to look for Decanus. Now I that I have figured that out I know it is from Vegetius and some inscriptions I can stop posting about it.

Thanks for bearing with me brothers

[Matthew Amt]

My advice is to never bother looking at Wikipedia. As others have said, the decurion was a cavalry officer, not infantry. A tentful or mess unit was called a contubernium, and I do not know if there was a regular leader of that unit nor what his title might have been in the first century. I'd be a little leery of Vegetius on that score, but he may be the best answer we have. Certainly there's no reason to assume that "eight" means "ten" and then fill in with slaves or whatever.

What IS that silliness about the pugio??

Interestingly, as I understand it the 120 cavalrymen in a legion were kept on the rolls of the centuries they were drawn from. Makes you wonder whether they were still under the authority of their centurion as well as their decurion? But it does mean that when calculating the numbers of a legion, you do not add 120 to the infantry total. And every century (on average) will be a couple men short in battle array (not to mention men missing for artillery crews, casualties, sick list, detached duty, etc.).

What's also curious is that although we assume that 10 contubernia made up a century of 80 men, in some forts there are as few as 8 pairs of rooms per barracks block, in others there are as many as 14! As with so many other questions, we obviously don't have the full answer, here. Isn't research great?

Valete,

Matthew