copper-alloy Type \'A\' sheath

[Matthew Amt]

I'm still new to this period and just want to be clear on the term "copper-alloy" used to describe the original. :?

Does this mean that it is made of roman "brass" with has a higher copper content than modern yellow brass?

Would yellow brass be the best choice to make one, or could it be made out of copper?

"Copper alloy" is just a "safe" way to refer to brass or bronze, if no actual analysis has been done to determine its specific ingredients. It avoids getting yelled at for calling something "brass", for instance, when someone finds out that it's really bronze!

I would use brass, not copper. Yes, modern yellow brass has more zinc than the Romans tended to have in their orichalcum, but they really don't seem to have used straight copper much at all.

That second scabbard, the one shown with iron side gutters, is about the same as one shown elsewhere--I think in JRMES somewhere--except that as I saw it there were only the brass front and back plates with nothing between them. So is this a different piece, or one "filled in" with restoration?

Valete,

Matthew

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

There are two scabbards practically identical. One was founded at Nijmegen and the other one at Spain, it's the one at the picture.

I don't understand the post of Gabriel Moncada. Say you the picture it's from a iberian knife? Is it well dated, or in context? What about the Nijmegen one?

Probably the side gutters are original, and at the Nijmegen exemplar were corroded and so not preserved.

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

the side gutters are original on the scabbard from Spain, on the Nijmegen scabbard, I think they where never there ????

Gabriel
sure the Romans had the double disc hilts,
the double disc handle originate in Spain, and was adopted by the Romans, there is little difference between the Spanish and the Roman
types.
there are Roman types found in Numantia, Caceres, Garurris and some other sites in Spain.
one double disc handle with part of the blade is found near Chalon sur Saone in the Saone river, a blade in Alesia and a complete dagger with double disc handel in Oberaden.

there is no dagger with the Nijmegen sheet, so my reconstruction is hypothetical

Luc

[marcii ulpi messala]

We know that from the 1st century A.D. the Romans adopted the Hispanic pugio and his forms differ in something from the Hispanic ones, but were they all the pugios of double circular hilt found in Roman context before this century made by the Romans? Which is really the structural difference of the Roman pugio of the Hispanic?
I ask for excuses for my English poor person, sometimes my questions are too simple for this.

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Gabriel,

It's hard to say when it's a roman or a iberic weapon. Probably it's easier to determine using the sheath type than using the hilt or the blade.

I think the iberian use a frame type, as some early roman exemplars (Dangestteten, Titelberg, etc...). So, my question was if you have some aditional information about the spanish sheath of the picture, in order to say it were iberian and not roman.

You don't have to demand excuses for your english. If i could write in spanish, probably my posts were more inteligible sometimes. :lol:

[Peroni]

The Iberian example (with iron guttering) does not appaear to have any suspension loops at the rivet points.

This is where there is a ring in Roman examples. Was it suspended in a different fashion?

[Crispvs]

Lvcivs,

Thanks for the information and the further pictures. As always I would be interested in anything more you have or could get. Regarding its being unpublished, I was told by Martin Dolmanns last year that he was working on an article in which he intended to publish all of the Roman daggers so far found in the Netherlands. Presumably that would include this one, so hopefully it will not remain unpublished for much longer.
Do you know if there is any evidence of a hole through the terminal expansion to allow for the rivet which would normally be found there. There does not seem to be much indication of one in your photos but I am allowing for the possibility that the rivet may have been lost and that expanded rust from the blade may have obscured the hole.
Thanks also for posting up the picture of the Spanish sheath. I had not actually realised until I saw your picture that it had iron side gutters. Previously I had assumed that it was a somewhat weird type 'A' sheath. I must either get a new German-English dictionary or read more carefully.
Do you have any more pictures of it from other angles, particulary the sides and back, or information regarding its discovery and preservation?
I have to wonder whether it might be the combination either in antiquity or in more recent times of the remains of two seperate sheaths.

Cesar,

The best photos I have of the Leeuwen dagger suggest to me that the copper alloy is a coating of some sort or perhaps very thin leaf which has worn away in places. However, I would have to go there and see it myself in order to know for sure, unless someone who has been able to get a close look at it wishes to comment.

Regarding "double disc" handles, I find this term a little confusing, as it made me first think of the other type of native Spanish dagger which had a pommel in the form of two discs side by side and whose sheath had a matching terminal expansion in the form of two side by side discs. It took me a moment or two to realise that the "double disc hilt" referred to was the early form of the familiar handle used by the Romans which featured a central expansion and a circular pommel expansion.

Peronis,

"The Iberian example (with iron guttering) does not appaear to have any suspension loops at the rivet points."

I agree that this is somewhat confusing and had previously led me to suspect that this particular sheath had been subject to some uninformed restoration in the past. However, now that I realise that it is a type 'B' plate attached to side gutters (or possibly a complete frame) the possibility exists that it may have possessed type 'B' suspension as there does not seem to be any evidence of suspension loops under the rivet heads. How type 'B' suspension would be attached though I am not sure. Again, I would have to see the piece myself. I wonder if Lvcivs has any other pictures from other angles which might help. Slits in the sides of the guttering are a possibility, although I do not know of a roman example of that technique. The pairs of rivets, rather than groups of three or four, are interesting and could potentially have supported either type of suspension. Of course, if it is a combination of two separate sheaths then the remains of the suspension loops for type 'A' suspension might be in their original positions on the frame and might be hidden by the type 'B' plate. I need to know more about both of these sheaths!

Crispvs

[marcii ulpi messala]

Here a fragment of the circular end of a case of pugio Celtiberian. The system is equal to the one that appears as Spanish, because of it I believe(create) it is Spanish and not Roman.

[img][/img]

[marcii ulpi messala]

Back

[img][/img]

[marcii ulpi messala]

Wings

[img][/img]

[marcii ulpi messala]

The assembly according to my theory

[img][/img]

[Crispvs]

Your drawing makes me think of the Dangstetten fragments.

Crispvs

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Excellent drawing and pictures, Gabriel! Laus for you.

[Tarbicus]

Here's a sculptural example of a pugio scabbard with guttering, just for reference: Minucius Lorarius c. 43 BC

http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

And another: Publius Flavoleius Cordus
http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/ ... Itemid,94/

[LUCIUS ALFENUS AVITIANUS]

Regarding "double disc" handles, I find this term a little confusing, as it made me first think of the other type of native Spanish dagger which had a pommel in the form of two discs side by side and whose sheath had a matching terminal expansion in the form of two side by side discs. It took me a moment or two to realise that the "double disc hilt" referred to was the early form of the familiar handle used by the Romans which featured a central expansion and a circular pommel expansion.
Crispvs

What kind of dagger is that?

There are some daggers with a 4 disc pommel sheath, but the handle is in form of a T.

http://www.ffil.uam.es/equus/warmas/tipolog/22.jpg

There are richly inlay in silver, with motifs even more complicated than roman ones.