Undecorated Type B sheath

[LVCIVS VVLPES]

Hi Jef,
I promised you a picture of a undecorated Type B sheath plate from Xanten
here it is

Obman / fundliste 1 - 19.FO: Kiesgrube bei Xanten, Reste des Holzfutters haben sich erhalten. L 232mm

Webster / 73. Xanten .Undecorated bronze or brass plate type B sheath

Cheers
Luc

[Marcus Mummius]

Great, thanks Luc!

Indeed a very peculiar hole pattern on the terminal.

I'd love to analyse this piece. It looks to be well preserved. I wonder if it was used this way or an unfinished piece...

A very interesting piece.

Vale,
Jef

[Peroni]

Thanks Luc.

Indeed a most unusual pattern for the terminal expansion fittings. Usually (if they survive) there is only one rivet in the centre.

Also most unusual is that it is cupric alloy and not the normally seen iron.

I wonder if it was used this way or an unfinished piece...

Yes, I wondered that too Jef. Do we know if it was found with any fittings such as rivets or suspension fittings?

[Crispvs]

Luc,

Thanks for posting this up! I don't know how I missed it until now!

I have often wondered about that particular sheath plate. Until now I had not had any confirmation that it was undecorated. As to it being unfinished, I do not see the terminal as being evidence of this. The odd arrangement of holes is clearly not preparation for the expected central hole as it would be difficult to remove these three holes, unless of course it is, in fact, unfinished and the three holes were intended to carry decorative rivets to surround the central rivet such as is to be seen on the Velson sheath.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Perhaps the three holes were to fasten a decoreated piece on the terminal expansion?

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

Highly unusual perhaps, but could the three holes be for dangly bits like on a balteus?
More likely just for an applique of some sort.

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Highly unusual perhaps, but could the three holes be for dangly bits like on a balteus?
More likely just for an applique of some sort.

I like this idea.......

[Crispvs]

Well, both are possibilities but of the two I would go for the applique suggestion. The sheath from Melun and in all likelyhood the frame sheath from Dangstetten had seperate discs attached to their terminal expansions. The idea of an applique is not so far from this and is not outlandish in my view, especially when so many sheaths are missing their terminal expansions and we have to assume what they originally looked like. How the three holes might have been used to attach such an applique is anyone's guess of course.

The idea of dangly bits hanging from the holes fails in my view on the basis that none of the representational evidence for dagger sheaths shows such a thing.

That said, there may have been a practical reason of some sort for the arrangement of holes. Perhaps the plate was made as a replacement for a lost or damaged one and turned out to be slightly too short. To avoid obstructing the point of the blade the maker of the sheath might, in this case, have decided to place rivets (which after all helped to hold the sheath together) around the outside of the terminal expansion. The idea of it being a replacement piece might also account for its lack of decoration and its manufacture in expensive yet more easily worked copper-alloy.

Unfortunately though, until another the same turns up we may never know the true explanation.

Crispvs

[Magnus]

You guys say copper...but do you actually mean copper, or brass/bronze?

[Peroni]

You guys say copper...but do you actually mean copper, or brass/bronze?

Luc wrote..

Obman / fundliste 1 - 19.FO: Kiesgrube bei Xanten, Reste des Holzfutters haben sich erhalten. L 232mm

Webster / 73. Xanten .Undecorated bronze or brass plate type B sheath

So it is copper alloy (as Crispvs also mentioned)

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Or perhaps the applique had a design which would be ruined by the single rivet method, such as a head or something..?

[Tarbicus]

Aesthetically, keeping the terminal rivets at the outer edge would keep the whole plate a nice smooth finish overall. Putting one big rivet in the centre might not look as good, and you can't disregard aesthetics with pugiones.

We might be over complicating the dagger. Whereas the majority of pugiones are decorated, some are not which is mostly attributed to the owner being hard up for cash. But these were real people with their own tastes and, just like now, when the choice of ostentatious is available that might not have been to everyone's taste. It's a mistake IMHO to generalise everyone and put them into a pigeonhole.

[Gaivs Antonivs Satvrninvs]

My wacky thought on the holes in the terminal expansion being for dangly terminals was due to the ones on the dolabra cover. No reason for them to be there but they look nice. Don't know why that idea occurred to me. I'm sure Crispus is right since he's the man when it comes to pugiones. I also like the idea that a decorative cover was applied and didn't want it messed up with a big rivet in the center.
Sorry, guys, just musing.

[Crispvs]

I have little doubt that there would have been a central boss or imitation rivet head in the centre of any appliquee over the terminal expansion. The idea that such a thing would lessen the aesthetic appeal to the Romans is belied by the fact that all surviving terminal expansions apart from the one on this particular sheath plate feature a central rivet or boss.

I also dislike the idea that decorated sheaths were the result of soldiers deciding to have their sheaths decorated. There is far too much consistancy in the decoration of sheaths from different sites to suggest that soldiers decided to have sheaths decorated after they already possessed them. Surely such decisions would result in the decoration being done locally, which would surely result in a wide variety of decorative styles, which is not really the case. The consistency of decoration on many sheaths strongly suggests that there may have been particular centres of dagger sheath manufacture and that decoration of sheaths was mainly carried out prior to sale to the army and issue to soldiers.
Also, the paucity of undecorated sheaths (a miserably small total of three) to my mind strongly argues against the majority of sheaths having been issued in an undecorated state.

That said, the type 'B' sheath from Usk with foliate decoration was almost certainly produced, or at any rate decorated, reasonably locally and one type 'B' sheath from Xanten carried decoration on both sides of the front plate, strongly suggesting recycling and re-use. However, these are probably both exceptions and I do not think that they need to change my interpretation of the evidence.

Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, perhaps the maker of this pugione was in the school of thought that the central rivet look was 'so yesterday' :wink: :twisted: