Conclusion to the problem of tunic color

[Primitivus]

Red, white and blue (Hurrah!) seem to be the prevailing colors...

You do realize, of course, that this combination may the the most common one for contemporary flags... including the Union Jack and the flag of France, as well as many others. :wink:

[Tarbicus]

Red, white and blue (Hurrah!) seem to be the prevailing colors...

You do realize, of course, that this combination may the the most common one for contemporary flags... including the Union Jack and the flag of France, as well as many others. :wink:

Don't forget your very own:

[Praefectusclassis]

Or this one, which I think is high in the list of the oldest combinations of red-white-blue (1596 according to trustworthy(?) Wikipedia).
Flag history, however, is OT and if we want to continue that discussion, it should go there.

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Thank you Tarbiucus....

And yes, this may be OT...

Those of us who are under her banner... cannot but appreciate the display.... Long live the Constitution, and the People of the United States of America. And all of the people of the free world. In this I am unashamed. Our flag is special to most of us. Most people who are here on RAT are good and honest people. Sometime there are misconceptions, and only through communication through this media , like RAT, can we come together and make a better world ... and this we do...

It helps us all when that we see our, or anyone Else's, national symbol recognized, by others, and not disrespected. And this responsibility to do so applies to us all, regardless of our race or national origin, to show like respect. RAT has always shown a natural respect in keeping within these inalienable freedoms.

Thank You,
Ralph Izard

[JRSCline]

Wow. Well said, Ralph.

[Carus Andiae]

but you are pretty sure that a roman legion, had a whole jumble of different tunic colors?

There is no way of being sure of such a statement. It's an opinion, and it is invariably culturally influenced by trends in thinking at any given time.

Exactly. I'm rather fond of the theory suggested in Graham Sumner's Roman Military Clothing 2 - i.e. undyed fatigues, red battle dress and white parade dress - but that's probably because I'm influenced by modern uniforming practices.

[Matthew]

It's interesting to note that, although the common perception of medieval heraldry is of individualism, the heraldry itself could be a type of uniform in certain instances. I would suggest that there is an impulse for a certain degree of uniformity amongst military units of all ages, whether this extends to the colours of Roman tunics remains debateable, of course.

Matthew James Stanham

[Carus Andiae]

Certainly the Military Orders of the Crusades era (Templars, Hospitallers etc) wore a what could be called a uniform - for example, Knights Templar wore a white surcoat - and Sergeants Templar a black surcoat - with a scarlet cross paty on the left breast. The shield was bisected horizontally, the top half black and the bottom half white.

[Woadwarrior]

how did romans get that red color on thier shield?

[A_Volpe]

The shield color is also about as Iffy as Tunic color...What the actual colors are is not entirely known...The paint itself is iffy, but this is what I know:

One thought is that Romans may have used Casein, or Milk-Paint. Another theory is that the paint is "sealed" with Encaustic (melted wax, can be with powder pigment)

( www.larp.com/legioxx/scutum.html )

The actual pigment itself could probably come from vegetation - I *think* berries, being boiled or dried and ground to a powder, then added to a medium (oil for instance for oil painting, egg yolk for Medieval Tempera painting), what the Romans used for Medium I don't know.

To the best of my Artist knowledge, the "active ingredient" in the milk paint is the idea that the calcium and protein in the milk is what "sticks" the pigment to the surface, and if you've left milk residue in a cup overnite, you'll notice that film...I could be wrong on this, but that's what my spinning wheels are concluding....Such as the egg yolk in Tempera, being protein, sticks the paint on.

Much the same as the Hide/skin glue you'd use to assemble the shield, the idea of something mostly organic of proteins and fibers (wood grain, hide glue, leather, et cetera), it really is amazing such a technology apparently work[ed] so darn well.

On a side note, the reason some of us get a little annoyed with your questions is that you keep asking for "the final answer"...We are not Regis Filbman and no you don't want to be a millionare (cause then we'd come looking for you :wink: )...Please understand that there is no 100% absolute truth about the Romans...We do know a lot about the Romans and the Legions, but we still don't know *everything*, and much of what we do know now and tell/show the public is what we agree is pretty darn close. Even at this, you're going to run into conflicting theories and arguments, which you obviously have seen here...And chances are the information we think is pretty darn close may be questioned in the future with new discoveries.

You've asked the question about Tunics and colors before, and we've answered them with 3-4 pages even....You keep asking for the "Final Answer" with the same question, and you're still going to get "We Don't Really Know For Sure"...Don't you realize this can be rather annoying?

try to take all of this information and decide to come up with your own answer, using this information we've given you and all the research you've claimed you've done to back you up when someone like yourself asks you "but..." or "how/are you sure?"

Don't get me wrong, I've been annoyed with you before, but I applaud your enthusiasm and eagerness to get the best answers to your questions. At the same time, some of your questions have been answered, so please continue to do as much research as you can when you can before you ask questions you think may not have been answered..It might take you a long time, because of your apparent access limitations. Hit those books! 8)

[caiusbeerquitius]

The shield color is also about as Iffy as Tunic color...What the actual colors are is not entirely known...The paint itself is iffy, but this is what I know:

One thought is that Romans may have used Casein, or Milk-Paint. Another theory is that the paint is "sealed" with Encaustic (melted wax, can be with powder pigment)

From the Roman Empire we know through archaeological evidence of the following painting techniques for wood or similar surfaces:

1. Casein paint: paint based on milk proteins mixed with pigments
2. Tempera paint: based upon a water-oil mixture (known from the Fayum), or on eggs.
3. Encaustic paint (based on wax)

The pigments used for painting were different, but most of them mixed out of minerals, e.g. blue as "Caeruleum" (copper, quartzsand, chalk, soda, water)

[Carus Andiae]

The Dura Europos shields are basically red, are they not? Of course, that doesn't mean that red was universal throughout the Army or the Imperial period

[Crispvs]

I don't have Simon James's book on Dura unfortunately, but I have always been led to believe that the Dura shields were painted in a number of different colours. The well known straight sided scutum was predominantly red but the remains of a similar scutum were apparently green. Of the oval shields, there were a few red ones and some white ones, as well as quite a lot of plain pink shields. As far as I know at any rate. Someone with the James book might care to comment. And as Carus says above, whatever variety we find at Dura may not necessarily be indicative of every part of the imperial period.

Crispvs

[Caratacus]

Frankly, I'm somewhat amazed that this question (the original one) about Roman army tunic colours is still out there! It's not that it's been "settled", it's just that it's been worked to death! Between Nick Fuentes and Graham Sumner, we have about as definitive a look at this that we are going to get, short of finding a Roman army manual. That's the problem - in the absence of any definite information (as some would see it), there is no way that the question can be answered for sure - which is (of course) what makes it so much FUN!

However, at the risk of boring everyone to death, has anyone yet considered (a) what red dyes were available to the Romans and (b) how much it would have cost to buy a tunic dyed with them? I can only think of three, viz: Kermes, madder and Ladies' bedstraw. The first would be hideously expensive (probably used for dyeing the cloth of a senior officer's cloak, a la GIC). The second (madder) uses the root of the plant. It requires a fairly complex mordanting process and would require an equal weight of root to fabric. One other thing - the madder plant needs to grow for three years before it can be harvested. This represents quite an investment for a 'farmer'. Lastly, the LB plant isn't all that widely distributed throughout Europe. All of which suggests to me that a tunic dyed with red would be a rather expensive item.

What about blue? Only one blue dye - woad! Again, a complex process required - so fairly expensive.

I think I remember that the papyrus 'pay return' recovered from Masada of a soldier in the Xth Fretensis showed that he was being 'docked' a sum of 7 denarii (i.e. 28 sestertii) for a 'tunica alba' (er .... a white tunic). This represents around 10% of his 300 sestertii stipendium. A dyed tunic, surely, would be beyond the financial grasp of your average Roman squaddie?

Just a thought? :roll:

Mike Thomas
(Caratacus)

[Tarbicus]

What has cost got to do with anything? Do we know how much silvering or tinning equipment cost? Do we know how the fiscal policies of the Roman army worked and what their priorities were? Was it more important to look impressive on the battlefield and dismay the enemy (a job half done) than to pinch pennies over something that there may well have been a booming industry for anyway?

How come the British army was so resplendant and red at the height of its Empire, even with lace details? Maybe there's a clue?