Conclusion to the problem of tunic color

[Woadwarrior]

so what you are saying is that you dont really know for sure what it was like

but you are pretty sure that a roman legion, had a whole jumble of different tunic colors?

does the same go with shield, did they all have a different shape or design on there scutum???

couldnt the romans have seprated each century by similarity?
i thought it was the first uniform army?

did they all wear different type helmets too?

please lets settle this matter once and for all

[Magnus]

Basically, they all wore plastic bags with their name and unit designation written on them. Sometimes some legionarys would tie these plastic bags off to the tip of their pilum. It was a very impressive site.

Others wore different coloured garbage bags, with arm holes and a head hole cut out of the bottom. This also doubled as a rain jacket.

Wearing plastic bags over their caligae was another popular method to keep the water out when it was wet.

[Victrix]

Until we find a) several original tunics, somehow preserved in a peat bog or other such location, or b) a way to go back in time and see what the Roman soldiers wore, I don't think this will ever be settled. The best we can do now is guesswork, backed up by some research. Red, white and blue (Hurrah!) seem to be the prevailing colors supported by documents and study, so any of those three would probably be acceptable.

-Matt

[Woadwarrior]

what about grey, or dirty brown

listen magnus if you have a problem with my qusetions, just dont answer them , ur not being helpful

[Victrix]

It's possible that those colors were used, but I personally don't know. This topic has been covered many times in the past on this website, and, if memory serves, there are whole books written on the topic. Old topics and those books might be worth having a look at if you want a definitive answer to your questions.

-Matt

[mcbishop]

so what you are saying is that you dont really know for sure what it was like

That goes for most fields of study in ancient history and archaeology; you just have to accept that most of the time you don't know.

but you are pretty sure that a roman legion, had a whole jumble of different tunic colors?

There is no way of being sure of such a statement. It's an opinion, and it is invariably culturally influenced by trends in thinking at any given time.

does the same go with shield, did they all have a different shape or design on there scutum???

We don't know.

couldnt the romans have seprated each century by similarity?
i thought it was the first uniform army?

They may have separated them in that way, but we don't know one way of the other. I don't think anybody in their right mind would claim the Roman army as the first 'uniform' army (first define 'uniform'!), but it has often been said that they were the first professional (i.e. paid) standing (i.e. not sent home after wars) army.

did they all wear different type helmets too?

Did every soldier have a different helmet to all his chums? No. Did every soldier have the same helmet? No. Did the truth lie somewhere in between? Yes; but precisely where within that rather broad zone we don't know.

please lets settle this matter once and for all

What, and spoil everyone's fun? ;-) The truth is that the study of the past, whether it be through the disciplines of archaeology, ancient history is seldom about certainties, but rather about learning to assess one's sources, balance probablities, and find as many varied ways of saying 'possibly' as is... possible.

Mike Bishop

[Magnus]

what about grey, or dirty brown

listen magnus if you have a problem with my qusetions, just dont answer them , ur not being helpful

And you're not listening. All you need to do is read up on any of links that people posted in your threads prior to your leaving to go to Europe, and you'd have a firm base knowledge of the Roman Army. But it's obvious based on this second round of questions that you have not done this. Nor have you used the search function on this forum at all. Also, Google is your friend.

A lot of people are getting frustrated at your questions because it seems that you don't learn anything from what we tell you. Nor are you inclined what so ever to find out anything on your own.

So in a sense, you're not being helpful because you're not allowing us to help you. Perhaps you should re-think the manner in which you are trying to learn about the Roman Army...ie: go purchase some books on the subject, or go to a library if money is an issue.

[Woadwarrior]

i have made not one single post for more than a month, you basically had a vacation from WoadWarrior, and now I come back, and I am excited about all the things I could learn from the experts but obviously they are not excited about answering my questions, and I make about 6 post, and your all jumping down my throat
these questions are very important to me as well as every answer.
If you want me to stop fine
I get maybe an 1 hour internet time every 48 hours, and try to get the fastest answers so I use this site.
I live in a town so small that it doesnt have a library. I own maybe 20 books about the ancient world, Im trying to suck up all the knowledge I can. I want to know what roman life and the roman army actually looked like, it is not exactly what your renactors look like, and it is not hollywood , but it is something in between, and in my quest I though actual reenactors would help me
do I have to BE a reenactor to be appreciated on this site??

[Martin Wallgren]

i have made not one single post for more than a month, you basically had a vacation from WoadWarrior, and now I come back, and I am excited about all the things I could learn from the experts but obviously they are not excited about answering my questions, and I make about 6 post, and your all jumping down my throat
these questions are very important to me as well as every answer.
If you want me to stop fine
I get maybe an 1 hour internet time every 48 hours, and try to get the fastest answers so I use this site.
I live in a town so small that it doesnt have a library. I own maybe 20 books about the ancient world, Im trying to suck up all the knowledge I can. I want to know what roman life and the roman army actually looked like, it is not exactly what your renactors look like, and it is not hollywood , but it is something in between, and in my quest I though actual reenactors would help me
do I have to BE a reenactor to be appreciated on this site??

No you don´t.

But it could help if you was maybe somewhat toned down in your aproach. Don´t give up, little friend. And put down your age in your profile and I think more forumites would be more patient with you. Many take you for a "troll" and think you are pulling legs here. I think you are a boy like I was 18 years ago, and I wish the net was out there then. God what a learned guy I would have been if It where.

Patres of romanarmytalk! Please be patient with Woady. He just wants to learn and he will be a better person for it. Don´t strangle the youthfull questinonary spirit of the boy just because he don´t have the experience of how to conduct himself on a forum. He will learn.

Woady, read what they write, and take it in. But don´t be too cocky, and people will stop answer you.

Hope you don´t take offence by my advice!

Martin

[Gaius Decius Aquilius]

Woadwarrior

I think you should take what Magnus and Martin have to say as well intentioned and not insulting.

All things considered, RAT has an informed and astute membership. There is some infighting, and I plead guilty to that. But I have made some good friends here, who's correspondence I respect and look forward to.

I would think it a good idea if RAT would require an age. I admit to not having mine down because I'm too old to be playing with helmets and swords and such, and its an embarrassment to my wife. There is nothing X rated about this site, but sometimes it is good for all of us to know the perspective from which someone makes a comment or statement. It helps the formulate the response. Also, discussing something like "Erotic Rome" with someone under 18 could be considered to against the law in some states or countries. And this I am serious about.

Also, your exchange with Irtatus or whatever, did sound like a schoolyard spat, or a city council meeting.

Anyway, Magnus's answerer was clever... Try to see the humor. If I have any complaint about RAT, it is that there are not enough jokes. But we do have an international community and sometimes humor is taken for an insult when it is not meant to be. And on the other hand, I have insulted people who never got it...

Gaius Decius Aquilius
(Ralph Izard)

[Woadwarrior]

thank you for such a reasurring reply Martin

i really dont want to reveal my age

exchange with iratus? oh great It must have sound like some 13 year old quarreling with somebody I dont know, but that person really got me frustrated, and had alot of questions after my trip and the only replies I get is from a confused (foreign?) person who was acting like Im an expert, and I have the answers , and totally switched my topic around.

[Martin Wallgren]

hehe yepp!

Rome (the empire) had at the time of it´s largest spread probally more than 50 million inhabitants. The armed forces where maybe more than 500 000 standing soldiers. If you take a country as England it has today around 66 million citizens (correct me if I´m way of) and I don´t know how many the numbers of soldier on duty are but a lot I would think. The same with the USA. And if you put members from all the branches of a modern army side by side they will differ alot in apperance. And this is "Uniformed" armys.

Now imagine an army of close combat soldiers who have to pay for their own equipment. It will be a realy motley crew compared to the moderna guys. still they probally had some way of destingush eachother from the enemy. what it was, colour of tunics, shields, or feathers in their helmets we really don´t know today.

The first "Uniformed" troops came in the late 17 century and the scale of the fighting armys then where much larger than most of the fight during the Roman iron age. Some of the examples of uniforms are the red coats of England and the blue coated Swedish Caroliner soldiers... That we know of... Japaneese soldiers had flags on thier backs to distinguish themselves. Who knows maybe the Romans had painted armour??? (yes I know it is a radical thought, but anyway.)

As long as one don´t argue that they had colours that where impossible to get with the current technology one can always say it was plusible.

I can in some way understand the critic against Reenactors, who by the way do a tremendes job, is that there tend to be reenactorisms and in some ways a little missguiding conformity in the presentations of the kit. This has a very simple explenation. To get things as correct as possible a reenactor has to follow the evidence as close as he/she can. and the Archeological evidence is very scarse. This make for the reenactorisms like for example the pants of Viking reenactors. Ether you have the oldstyle snugfitting pants copied out of one or two westscandinavian finds or you hav the Rus baggypants witch could have belonged to someone who not at all where a viking. But they look cool so alot ov reenactors have them and there is evidence of the having existed.

The reallity of where probally much more diverse just like the present time. And I think alot of the Reenactors here agree with me on this. But to do a good representation of a roman soldier we have to stick as much as we can to what we know.

The other end of the spectrum is eather Hollywood and fantasy or something more expremental where one take what we know of Sciense and of the contemporary technology at the time we research and try and test what COULD have been plausible. This is not an exact sciense either. But somewhere between History (written sourses) Archeology (dug up finds) Expremental Archeology (testing stuff that are based on the former two) and Antropology we might hint the truth.

To conclude, we don´t know but we do educated guesses. But not even the most knowlegble Professor at Oxford can say for sertain EXACTLY how it was.

[Caius Fabius]

i have made not one single post for more than a month, you basically had a vacation from WoadWarrior, and now I come back, and I am excited about all the things I could learn from the experts but obviously they are not excited about answering my questions, and I make about 6 post, and your all jumping down my throat
these questions are very important to me as well as every answer.
If you want me to stop fine
I get maybe an 1 hour internet time every 48 hours, and try to get the fastest answers so I use this site.
I live in a town so small that it doesn't have a library. I own maybe 20 books about the ancient world, Im trying to suck up all the knowledge I can. I want to know what roman life and the roman army actually looked like, it is not exactly what your renactors look like, and it is not hollywood , but it is something in between, and in my quest I though actual reenactors would help me
do I have to BE a reenactor to be appreciated on this site??

Do you have a computer at home? If so, you might consider writing out your questions in advance, and putting them on a floppy disk, then coming to the internet and cutting and pasting them to the forum. That way you could spell check them, and you could look over them a couple of times to see if they are in a polite and friendly tone, rather than an accidentally aggressive or belittling tone. You could then cut and paste the answers from the members here, including the Ancient History PhD, and author of books on Roman equipment, who answered some of your questions. Take them home and read through them carefully. The you will not feel that you must be in such a hurry to post at the library or internet cafe, and you can not have spelling errors and ask the same question over again.

We have reenactors from 12 years old and maybe even under. Probably until you are old enough to drive or travel you may not be able to join a group, but it is possible that you can start a local group, perhaps even with the help of a local church, to put on a Christmas or Easter play. Then you might be able to attend an event near you, someday and meet other reenactors. There are some people who collect equipment, tunics, shoes and never get to go to a big event, others who only collect items for their private enjoyment. You do not have to be a reenactor, many of this RomanArmy Talks forum are not and will never choose to be.

You do not have to start all at once. The worst thing you can do is to jump on the internet and willy-nilly waste a bunch of money on junk. You can save your money and buy good books, ask for good books for your birthday or Christmas/or similar celebrations. Don't start asking for erotic Roman books, your parents/guardians might not like that.

Find a history teacher at your school. Tell him or her of your interests. Maybe they can assist you in borrowing books, and finding additional resources. The internet is a good place to find some information, but there are better places to get started. You will not find all your answers in 1 to 3 hours a week here at RAT.

Unfortunately, again, many people here are busy. Some are professional historians, doing research or consulting with each other (sort of how this started). Others are re-enactors trying to answer a question, and not really wanting to read or answer every post. Some are students, some are just here to be social, some are here to just read every post, going all the way back to the beginning. Some come to use the databases or to help create more. Not everyone has time to answer every post. AND once a post seems to be well answered by one or two members, other members don't bother to repeat the same information.

If you don't get the answer you want, sometimes you are asking the question wrong! (Something I learned writing tests as an instructor/teacher). If you don't like the answer you get, it may still be the only answer out there. I know that when I started this, I had to actually write letters to people, and ask professors and specialists via the post (snailmail) each carefully thought out question. I was an undergraduate student, and most authorities didn't bother to answer me. Some wrote back, "I don't know" on a post card.

When I was doing graduate work, I had about the same results, weeks of waiting for answers that were not what I needed or wanted. My thanks still go out to the professors and specialists who bothered to take time and answer my questions. Maybe I feel that I need to pay that back, a little, now that I have some spare time. However, there are many people asking many questions. There is only so much time. Sometimes to answer a question, I have to go and re-read three or four books, just to check my facts. Sometimes I have to buy a new book, or order something from a library. I am not the greatest scholar. If people don't answer your questions, the way you want, maybe you can be patient, or use google or other internet resources in addition to asking the question here.

Other places might include the Roman Army newsgroup on yahoo, or reading the LEGIO XX Handbook. You might even download that to disk, take it home and study it? There are several possibilities.

No one knows all the answers, and some answers are not known by anyone alive today. Just do NOT base your understanding of history on the history channel, discovery channel and a bunch of Hollywood movies and HBO series. The producers and writers may know a lot less than you do! Someday get the 'script' for Gladiator, and you'll get an idea of what I mean.

Keep learning, keep thinking, ask one or two questions at a time, find the answers, then ask another question. Don't overwhelm yourself and others with loads of questions, because you won't remember all the answers and other people will quickly get tired of taking their time to answer you.

[Woadwarrior]

thanx for everything

[Matt Lukes]

I get maybe an 1 hour internet time every 48 hours, and try to get the fastest answers so I use this site.
I live in a town so small that it doesnt have a library. I own maybe 20 books about the ancient world, Im trying to suck up all the knowledge I can. I want to know what roman life and the roman army actually looked like, it is not exactly what your renactors look like, and it is not hollywood , but it is something in between, and in my quest I though actual reenactors would help me
do I have to BE a reenactor to be appreciated on this site??

See, it would have made a HUGE difference to have mentioned this a long time ago Francis- without knowing this, all it seems is that you want to know everything right now. Now I understand why it seems that you're constantly bugging for replies and so on. Now of course it doesn't make it right- but I understand.

And just to add to what Fabius said about answers, most people won't bother to post 'I don't know', so a lack of replies could-well mean that there simply aren't many people who know the answer. It's fair to post a little something to bump the question back up to the top, but that's best done without sounding like you're annoyed at the lack of replies.