Seville exhibition

[Jona Lendering]

I have seen the website of the exposition, but I can not find out whether photography is permitted. I am thinking about making the trip, but it is quite an enterprise (it means first flying from Amsterdam to Lissabon, and from Lissabon to Seville, and back again), and it is pretty expensive. So I need to be certain that I can take photographs. Does anyone know?

[Proximus]

Yes, I'd like to know as well. I doubt the friezes date to Late Roman times since I've seen quite a lot of classicizing art from that period and they do not really resemble these new works, IMO. It would surprise me if they date later than 2nd century AD. The sculpting techniques look very high quality to my eyes.

Ok... So if we pose it is an artwork from 1rst or 2nd century AD, we could possibly imagine the artist did use the segmentata because used in his time, not because used one hundred years before ?

Of course, the datation could resolve this problem and with datation we could have the final word of this ! So long we have debate about the first segmentata !

[Julio]

I live in Seville. I´ll try to get photos in the nexts days.
Regards
Julio

[MeinPanzer]

Yes, I'd like to know as well. I doubt the friezes date to Late Roman times since I've seen quite a lot of classicizing art from that period and they do not really resemble these new works, IMO. It would surprise me if they date later than 2nd century AD. The sculpting techniques look very high quality to my eyes.

Ok... So if we pose it is an artwork from 1rst or 2nd century AD, we could possibly imagine the artist did use the segmentata because used in his time, not because used one hundred years before ?

Of course, the datation could resolve this problem and with datation we could have the final word of this ! So long we have debate about the first segmentata !

I don't think any segmentata is depicted. It seems what is being mistaken for segmentata is the musculature on the back of the muscled cuirasses.

[PhilusEstilius]

I think the two soldiers fighting are indeed wearing segmentata of sorts, for there are horizontal lines clearly shown and any idea of it being musculata is simply from the fact that the monument is worn away a bit.

[Theodosius the Great]

Ok... So if we pose it is an artwork from 1rst or 2nd century AD, we could possibly imagine the artist did use the segmentata because used in his time, not because used one hundred years before ?

I agree with Ruben about the armor, they look like musculatae and not segmentata to me. Yes, the dating would answer a lot of questions. But I suspect the artwork is contemporary with the battle. Why would Actium be celebrated so ostentatiously a hundred or more years after the event took place ? And in Spain of all places, across the Med. sea. :? But stranger things have happened I suppose...

I think the two soldiers fighting are indeed wearing segmentata of sorts, for there are horizontal lines clearly shown and any idea of it being musculata is simply from the fact that the monument is worn away a bit.

I can't agree, at least with the soldier on the right. We can clearly see a medusa on his chest which is consistent with musculata. As is the square collar on the armor.

I live in Seville. I´ll try to get photos in the nexts days.
Regards
Julio

Thank you, Julio !

~Theo

[MeinPanzer]

Ok... So if we pose it is an artwork from 1rst or 2nd century AD, we could possibly imagine the artist did use the segmentata because used in his time, not because used one hundred years before ?

I agree with Ruben about the armor, they look like musculatae and not segmentata to me. Yes, the dating would answer a lot of questions. But I suspect the artwork is contemporary with the battle. Why would Actium be celebrated so ostentatiously a hundred or more years after the event took place ? And in Spain of all places, across the Med. sea. :? But stranger things have happened I suppose...

Thankfully, this is one of those disagreements which we can, with all likelihood, solve with a few good photographs. I'd be curious, though, to hear why this scene is associated with Actium, and not another naval battle.

[Jona Lendering]

I live in Seville. I´ll try to get photos in the nexts days.

That would be lovely!

[Theodosius the Great]

I'd be curious, though, to hear why this scene is associated with Actium, and not another naval battle.

Agreed. OTOH, which other naval battles could the frieze be depicting ?
Assuming it does show a civil war, the only possibilities I know of are : the defeat of Sextus Pompeius at Naulochus (36 BC)
and the battle of the Hellespont in 324 AD between Constantine and Licinius.

Any other possibilities I missed ?

Without knowing any hard facts, I think Actium and Naulochus are equally likely.

~Theo

[Julio]

First, sorry about my english
Really, it isn´t a museum. There are several pieces from museum and private collections and the public can visit the Exposition until 28 February.
Photos aren´t allowed. I ´ll need a special permission for it. I took photos from the Exposition book, but if you need better photos, I´ll get the permission.
The relief was made between last years of I century BD and the first fifty years of the I century AD.
It is Italian origin and now is in the Cardona Dukes´private collection, in Córdoba, Spain.
The relief are three fragments with three meters long.The experts think there are two fragments more in a museum in Budapest where we can see Apolo and two bows of ships. The all relief probably have got five meters long.
All especialists say it is Actium but nothing in the landscape corroborate it.
I can´t help with the armour because I don´t know nothing. My interest is only the mail, loricas hamatas and plumatas.
I´ll try put photos in the web. Look in:

http://picasaweb.google.com/jujuncof/Ac ... CK9lJismQ#
I hope it can help.
Julio

[PhilusEstilius]

Julio. I think those pictures you have shown are good and I think Byron may be correct where he mentioned the tower / platform of a ship. That is in the earlier pictures where we have the 2 soldiers fighting, and the 2 lower left and right pics' you show are indeed such towers

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Was there not a battle at Massalia?

[Jona Lendering]

Thanks Julio!!

[Theodosius the Great]

Yes, thank you from me as well, Julio.

So, they are originally from Italy - that makes more
sense to me. I guess the experts were wrong about
a taboo. It never existed ! :wink:

These close-ups do indeed appear to show segs.
And I think I spoted one or two more musculatae.

Neat !

The datation can't tell us if segs were used in the late Republic, though.
It's too wide a span. Typical...

~Theo

[PhilusEstilius]

Theo. I do think that the segmentata or shall we call it metal flex armour was around in the late Republic, that is if the Kalkriese finds have anything to say on that. I know that situation is in 9AD however we have to start being just a little more flexible of mind on these matters, for we hear just a bit too much people who say OH THAT was'nt around then or THIS could'nt have been here. I find that sort of thing just a bit tunnel vision.