10-19-2014, 01:56 AM
Evan wrote:
I'm going off a Justinianic Papyrus that lists a Numerus of 508 men being stationed in Egypt + Zozimus.
I hope you using more than those two sources to make your conclusions. Is the figure of 508 men based on a modern interpretation, or does the papyrus list 508 men?
Evan wrote:
Obviously its not 480 or 560 men, as the former is too small and the latter would be an odd number of centuries, which the Romans didn't seem to like.
I have read (modern sources) that state the Romans liked odd numbers because they were considered lucky and even numbers were unlucky. As the whole Roman military system is based on even numbers, I am not sure how modern historians have arrived at their conclusion.
Evan wrote:
Also that would equal 79% strength if the Numerus numbered 659 men (640+officers), which is about right based on 3rd century papyrii from Dura Europos which show its operational strength to vary between 70 and 80%.
Using terms such as “if” is not very scientific. Why are you limiting your research to a few sources? If you compiled all the empirical data in the primary sources and leave out papyri, and then place the empirical data on a white board categorised into infantry, cavalry and unknown, over time likely mathematical patterns will emerge.
Evan wrote:
So a strength of 640 men seems to make sense. I presume its 6 centuries of dedicated infantry and possibly 2 centuries of dedicated archers.
So maniples are not part of the equation?
Evan wrote:
However, this doesn't take into account a possible integral cavalry element, if so then the Numerus could be 480 men + a few cavalry turmae, and that's a whole different ballgame.
Ah, the little red-herrings of the Roman military. Looking at some papyri material I have come to the conclusion an ala for the Late Roman cavalry contains a ratio of lancarii cavalry, so I am going with both light and heavy cavalry in an ala. Here I mean an ala that is on the same roll as the infantry (Vegetius). The ratio of light to heavy cavalry works out to be the same as the ratio of light to heavy infantry in a Late Roman legion. So when vexillations are formed, the vexillation or cohort(s) have the appropriate number of cavalry.
I'm going off a Justinianic Papyrus that lists a Numerus of 508 men being stationed in Egypt + Zozimus.
I hope you using more than those two sources to make your conclusions. Is the figure of 508 men based on a modern interpretation, or does the papyrus list 508 men?
Evan wrote:
Obviously its not 480 or 560 men, as the former is too small and the latter would be an odd number of centuries, which the Romans didn't seem to like.
I have read (modern sources) that state the Romans liked odd numbers because they were considered lucky and even numbers were unlucky. As the whole Roman military system is based on even numbers, I am not sure how modern historians have arrived at their conclusion.
Evan wrote:
Also that would equal 79% strength if the Numerus numbered 659 men (640+officers), which is about right based on 3rd century papyrii from Dura Europos which show its operational strength to vary between 70 and 80%.
Using terms such as “if” is not very scientific. Why are you limiting your research to a few sources? If you compiled all the empirical data in the primary sources and leave out papyri, and then place the empirical data on a white board categorised into infantry, cavalry and unknown, over time likely mathematical patterns will emerge.
Evan wrote:
So a strength of 640 men seems to make sense. I presume its 6 centuries of dedicated infantry and possibly 2 centuries of dedicated archers.
So maniples are not part of the equation?
Evan wrote:
However, this doesn't take into account a possible integral cavalry element, if so then the Numerus could be 480 men + a few cavalry turmae, and that's a whole different ballgame.
Ah, the little red-herrings of the Roman military. Looking at some papyri material I have come to the conclusion an ala for the Late Roman cavalry contains a ratio of lancarii cavalry, so I am going with both light and heavy cavalry in an ala. Here I mean an ala that is on the same roll as the infantry (Vegetius). The ratio of light to heavy cavalry works out to be the same as the ratio of light to heavy infantry in a Late Roman legion. So when vexillations are formed, the vexillation or cohort(s) have the appropriate number of cavalry.
