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The Vexillation - antiochus - 10-03-2014
I’m celebrating a little triumph as today was the day I found out how the Roman vexillation system works. It came from a wide range of references from Tacitus and ILS records. I’ve also managed to trace its origins, and it's the same organisation and size as the Praetorians for the principate. However, putting that aside, the proof of the pudding was when I applied it to the battle of Mons Graupius. The 3000 cavalry figure I have found awhile back to be accurate (no rounding), and when I took out the cavalry belonging to the auxiliary cohorts, the remainder I divided by the number of cavalry that can be allocated to a vexillation to arrive at the number of legion vexillations Agricola could have had. This insight into the vexillation system is helping me to understand the confusion in Hyginus.
The Vexillation - Vindex - 10-03-2014
I'm pleased you've had a break through
The Vexillation - Frank - 10-03-2014
Stop talking in riddles. Publish your damn book!
The Vexillation - antiochus - 10-04-2014
Vindex wrote:
I'm pleased you've had a break through
Thank you. It again confirms that the Romans have a standard practice to follow for every aspect of their military.
The vexillation system follows the principles laid down by Polybius on the extraodinarii. The Praetorians and the auxiliary for the principate all follow the principles of the extraodinarii.
The Vexillation - Gunthamund Hasding - 10-06-2014
will your theory be applicable only on the early participate or through it or for the late army as well?
I also thin romans had a standard practice in everything we simply don't know what exactly it was, and we can't be sure if it didn't changed over 1000+ years of existence
The Vexillation - antiochus - 10-06-2014
Gelu wrote:
will your theory be applicable only on the early participate or through it or for the late army as well?
The whole concept can mathematically be traced back to the Servian constitution. However, that doesn’t mean the vexillation system was implemented back then. I tend to stay where the evidence is and that is I know for sure it was implemented when allied legions are present in a consular army as per Polybius’ description of the extraordinarii. Without the allies, the Romans mathematically have the same system but the cavalry numbers will be smaller than the allied contingent. Mathematically, the system should continue to the sack of Rome, which is my cut off point. I will be going back over the sources again to see if I can find matches that correspond with Roman protocol. I have a lot of old material to read over again.
Gelu wrote:
I also thin romans had a standard practice in everything we simply don't know what exactly it was, and we can't be sure if it didn't changed over 1000+ years of existence
I use to think that way, back in the days when I was happily part of the crowd. And everything I ever read told me we will never know. And many academics I correspond with to this day tell me the same thing. However, that all changed when I investigated Roman mathematics. The floodgates burst open to reveal the Romans are adhering to a mathematical system designed for 1200 years. The system does not start with Rome’s founding date, but is part of a cycle of time beginning after the Trojan War. The Roman mathematical system is pure Pythagorean and it is so mathematically flexible you can cut a legion up horizontally or vertically. And when you cut it horizontally then you can cut that section vertically, and what you get a whole batch of numbers that match the primary sources. The Romans had this belief is they did not conform to the Pythagorean system, the gods would abandon them. Augustus even claimed that the civil wars were punishment from the gods for abandoning the old religion. The Roman system is built on the Pythagorean principles and mathematics of the five elements or five solid shapes (the building blocks of nature) amounting to 14400 degrees consisting of:
Heaven 6480 degrees (dodecahedron)
Fire 720 degrees (tetrahedron)
Air 1440 degrees (Octahedron)
Earth 2160 degrees (hexahedron)
Water 3600 degrees (icosahedron)
When broken down into the Servian constitution, it represents two divisions of 7200 degrees
Class I = 5760 degrees + Cavalry = 1440 degrees = 7200 degrees
Class II to VI = 7200 degrees or 1440 degrees per class.
That is the heartbeat of the Roman Pythagorean system, and when the 14400 degrees is divided by 1200 years, the result is 12 degrees per year.
The Vexillation - Frank - 10-06-2014
You know that a vexillatio in the army of the principate could mean everything between 2 and 2000 men. And the late roman vexillatio was again something fully different. So what kind of vexillatio you are talking about? A republican vexillatio?
The Vexillation - antiochus - 10-07-2014
Frank wrote:
You know that a vexillatio in the army of the principate could mean everything between 2 and 2000 men.
Yes and a cohort can be between 2 and 2000 men. It’s a matter of how an ancient historian defines the organisation. For the principate, I have found there is a standard organisation for a vexillation. However, two vexillations are operating together can be termed by an ancient author as a vexillation, just like they do with cohorts. Plutarch tells us a Praetorian cohort numbered 2000 men, but that doesn’t tell us if it consisted of smaller cohorts. Hyginus states 1600 banner men, which does not tell us how many vexillations. In reference to the principate a 2000 man vexillation of legionaries tells me it consists of two standard vexillations.
Frank wrote:
And the late roman vexillatio was again something fully different. So what kind of vexillatio you are talking about? A republican vexillatio?
What I have learnt from my damned book Frank is I have found all Roman legions from the Servian constitution are designed to be divisible by the same integer to form vexillations or whatever they are called for a particular period. However, since my last posting on this thread, I have been going over my research from start to finish, rereading books and academic papers and am coming to the following conclusion. To answer your question is there a republican vexillatio…..well yes, it called the extraordinarii, but it appears to be generally called “picked cohorts.” In 207 BC, Nero detached 6000 men and 1000 cavalry for his march to the Metaurus River. However, what troops types would he need. As it was going to be a vigorous march, chances are he wont’ be taking the triarii. Here I found the same ratio’s are in play between the infantry numbers and cavalry that if this occurred in the principate, they would be termed vexillations. However, although Nero’s force would be made up of a number of vexillations, this does not stop an ancient historian of the principate from simply calling it a vexillation, and thereby confusing the issue that a vexillation could number 6000 men.
Playing around with Hyginus’ 1600 banner, I found by omitting the oldest troops types I get 1600 banner men. I have found, like the triarii being allocated to guard the baggage, a vexillation can include the oldest troops or it omits them. When Arrian states that the first cohort of the fifteenth legion had only five centurions, this provides me with the evidence to know what the size of the legion was and who has been omitted. Again, Arrian has not taken the oldest troops in the legion. This was common Roman protocol as someone needs to guard the baggage or the field camp. As the Romans love exactness, this means the twelfth legion had five centurions in the first cohort. If veterans during the principate are mentioned accompanying the army, they guard the field camp or baggage camp, thereby allowing the Romans to put in the field a full strength legion. For Mons Graupius, the vexillations appear to be at full strength, meaning the oldest troops are on the battlefield. How? Well the legionaries are deployed in front of the field camp, so no need to have the oldest troops inside the camp (just like Cannae). Also there is a ratio of vexillation legionaries to auxiliary infantry and Mons Graupius matches this via the cavalry numbers which are accurate.
The Vexillation - antiochus - 10-12-2014
Frank wrote:
And the late roman vexillatio was again something fully different.
Can I ask what your take is on a vexillation of the Late Roman army?
And what sources are you using?
The Vexillation - Frank - 10-12-2014
Quote:Frank wrote:
And the late roman vexillatio was again something fully different.
Can I ask what your take is on a vexillation of the Late Roman army?
And what sources are you using?
My point here was, that in the late roman army the term vexillatio is used for one of the standard cavalry units. The Notitia Dignitatum shows about 90 of them. This is different to the principate, when a vexillatio could mean any detachment of any type of a larger main unit. A detachment of a legio, auxilia, ala or a mixed force of all of them.
The Vexillation - antiochus - 10-12-2014
Frank wrote:
My point here was, that in the late roman army the term vexillatio is used for one of the standard cavalry units. The Notitia Dignitatum shows about 90 of them.
Are there infantry vexillations in the ND or Ammianus or anyone covering from Diocletian to the sack of Rome in 410 AD? I am interested if the term “vexillation” is still being applied to the infantry. The reason why I am asking is my research is finding that with the smaller legions of the Late Roman army, a vexillation would equate to a cohort, so there would be no need for the traditional vexillation system within a legion. The cohort can do the job.
If there are infantry vexillations, then I need to determine if we are again the victims of terminology. I have found that sometimes an ancient author is not as specific as I would like them to be. For example when they mention a cohort, it leaves me with the question of whether it is a cohort under the command of a military tribune (the larger cohort), or the smaller cohort of five to six centuries.
The Vexillation - Frank - 10-12-2014
Quote:... my research is finding that with the smaller legions of the Late Roman army, a vexillation would equate to a cohort, so there would be no need for the traditional vexillation system within a legion. The cohort can do the job.
If there was a cohort at all. We don't know the substructure of a legio comitatensis. It was perhaps 1000-1200 men strong and led by a tribune. But was it divided directly into centuries like the old cohors millaria? The legio limitanei, commanded by a prefect was perhaps stronger (2000-3000 men) which would make cohorts more reasonable. But the strength of a legio limitanei is also unknown. If there was something like a paper-strength at all.
The Vexillation - Flavivs Aetivs - 10-12-2014
I don't honestly understand where the 2000-3000 man estimate for a Limitanei Legio comes from. All the historical evidence I've seen points to the largest Late Roman "Legion" numbering 1350 men.
The Vexillation - Frank - 10-12-2014
Quote:I don't honestly understand where the 2000-3000 man estimate for a Limitanei Legio comes from.
I don't believe in this larger legio limitanei, too. But it is still one of the major theories.
But the size of the late roman legion does not matter. During the principate a vexillatio could have any size, even if 2 cohorts was not uncommon. But just for a detachment of a legion to another exercitus, which is just one of many cases of vexillationes. Perhaps much less common than 5 or 10 soldiers, or any mixed force but not uncommon. It was just the latin word for "detachment" during the principate.
Surprisingly in the late empire the term vexillatio was now reserved for a cavalry unit of perhaps 300-600 men, as far as I know.
So I can't believe, that there is any standard or formula, the size of a vexillatio is based on. Because it was the nature of a vexillatio to be extremely flexible. Same with a numerus. At least during the principate.
The Vexillation - antiochus - 10-13-2014
Frank wrote:
If there was a cohort at all.
ILS 4195 is a dedication by cohorts VII and X of legio II Herculia. Coello dates the inscription to around AD 297. Ammianus mentions cohorts, maniples and centuries. Claudian attests to the existence of maniples.
Frank wrote:
If there was something like a paper-strength at all.
I have found the Romans do have a paper strength for everything, and multiply organisations with a legion or ala to undertake various tasks. That is why a cohort is made up of maniples and centuries.
Frank wrote:
So I can't believe, that there is any standard or formula, the size of a vexillatio is based on.
We agree to disagree. I am standing by my primary source evidence, which is consistent and shows that during the principate there was a standard organisation within the legion for a vexillation. It can be traced to Livy’s ordo system of 340 BC. The vexillatio of the principate can be further modified by including or excluding certain troops types which Arrian did against the Alanni (5 centurions in the first cohort).
Frank wrote:
Because it was the nature of a vexillatio to be extremely flexible. Same with a numerus. At least during the principate.
I agree the vexillation is extremely flexible. The vexillation I have is no different in organisation to the Praetorian Guard organisation, the urban cohorts and the auxiliary organisation. Nothing comes from a vacuum.
Frank wrote:
Surprisingly in the late empire the term vexillatio was now reserved for a cavalry unit of perhaps 300-600 men, as far as I know.
I have a cavalry body made up of six blocks, three are blue and three are red.
BBB
RRR
RRR
I can subdivide the six blocks into two vexillations each of three blocks, with each vexillation consisting of three blocks of blue or three blocks of red. This is the cavalry’s horizontal vexillation organisation. I can also divide the cavalry into three vexillations each of two blocks, one red and one blue. This is the cavalry’s vertical vexillation organisation. The blue blocks can represent light cavalry and the red blocks heavy cavalry. As a commander I can replace all or part of the light cavalry with heavy cavalry and vice versa.
Evan wrote:
I don't honestly understand where the 2000-3000 man estimate for a Limitanei Legio comes from. All the historical evidence I've seen points to the largest Late Roman "Legion" numbering 1350 men.
All the historical evidence I have accumulated points to the Late Roman legion not numbering 1350 men. How many references regarding the empirical data are divisible by 1350 men? Ammianus reference to 800 men is not divisible by 1350, unless you believe the Romans worked in fractions. However, Ammianus reference of Silvanus in command of 8000 reserve troops is divisible by 800. Do you see where I am coming from?
The Roman army is built on ratios. Therefore, there is a defining ratio that governs the number of infantry to cavalry. Polybius’ description of Scipio’s outflanking force at Ilipa in 206 BC is one such example. If a Roman commander was told to take one century of infantry with cavalry for a particular task, that commander will know exactly how many cavalry are involved. Same if it was a maniple or a cohort instead of a century.
The empirical data regarding the Late Roman army I found to be very good., I know this to be true because I have something that confirms it to be so and that is the tribal system. This is the one piece of material I have to fall back that requires me to tick all the boxes. Diocletian followed tradition and increased the size of the Servian constitution which is also the tribal organisation. To increase the number of legions Diocletian divided every tribe by three, so he would end up with three times the number of legions. The size of the cavalry (an ala) can be broken into three vexillations, and each vexillatio again divisible by three while still maintaining squadron integrity. So I am in agreement with Frank’s comment of cavalry vexillations for the Late Roman army.
The infantry in a Late Roman legion can still be organised into vexillations but a problem emerges with allocating cavalry to the infantry vexillation which was done during the principate. So I have come to the conclusion, the vexillation of both infantry and cavalry was abolished due to the maths not working. However, cavalry allocated to tribune cohorts works well and follows tradition.
The next item I was concerned with is whether the Late Roman legion followed tradition and was organised into ten cohorts (the smaller cohorts). Mathematically the Romans could do this but I have not found any empirical data to back this up and I am now leaning towards deleting the ten cohort system from the Late Roman legion. ILS 4195 indicating ten cohorts I believe it just before the reforms of Diocletian, possibly five years earlier.