tunic and caligae

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Wes
You could always save it for a later impression as I have seen a reference to red linen tunics in a late Roman context. From what I have read that would probably be an expensive garment as apparently it was difficult to dye linen.
Graham.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I took my pattern from grahams books too, but not quite mid calf! I have short legs so it would be pretty long on me that way! LOL

[arklore70]

Hi All,

I now have a Tunic made based on the Khirbet Qazone find in Jordan (G.Sumner page 25, Roman Military Dress). Being 68 inches in height the Tunic does reach down to my mid calves nicely and when unbelted I look like the milites on punishment detail in Sumner's Roman Military Clothing, Plate H, illustration1.

Now when I bloused it up I had those creases/pleats that we see on sculpture but I also had a ton of extra blouse material around my waistline to the point I looked like a former fat man after a gastric bypass. Is there a trick to how this can be bloused up to have a more functionally neat appearance? I am using a leather thong currently to blouse my tunic.

I also found that I had to use a neck knot to keep the material from slipping over my shoulder. The neck knot worked great when not wearing my armor and subarmalis, but when I put my full kit on, it took another Frater to help me wiggle in my kit and we had to pull the neck knot from under the armor to have my hamata wear comfortablly. In addition, even when wearing a Coolus "D"/Haltern helmet, the neck knot interfered in the way of the neck guard.

So, can anyone perhaps help me out and telling me what I know I got to be doing wrong?

[Doc]

Well,

In Sumner's book there is evidence that they did tie a knot in the back of their neck to hold the tunic up and out of the way. Possibly in armor, it was just left in its natural state. With the weight of the armor, I do not really see the tunic going anywhere.

As far as you other question, there was a thread some time ago by John McDermott called "Snappy Soldiers Tunic..... or something along these lines". I do not recall exactly but he had come up with an interesing way on how to get the draped effect and to distribute the material so that it does not sag.

Personally, I just pull my tunic up over the knee, and tie it at the waist with a rope. Afterwards just putting my subarmalis and pteryges, renders the tunic virtually immobile. Since these items are not exactly light (I have under armor gear for a centurio so my linen pteryges and subarmalis are quite thick and heavy) they compress my tunic so it does not sag.

[M. Demetrius]

I also found that I had to use a neck knot to keep the material from slipping over my shoulder. The neck knot worked great when not wearing my armor and subarmalis, but when I put my full kit on, it took another Frater to help me wiggle in my kit and we had to pull the neck knot from under the armor to have my hamata wear comfortablly.

Well, it would depend on how the back of the neck of your gear fits, I guess. It's not easy to see from waaay over here in TX. :wink: Sometimes the knot in the back is smaller if it's tied with a little leather string.

Sometimes I double it back so it's more like a ball. I can see how it could interfere with a close-fitting hamata and subarmalis especially if it's actually a knot made from a hitch in the tunic. That would be about the size of a golfball, more or less depending on the size of the neck hole in the tunic. Try tying a string around it and see if that works better. From what few of them I've seen, the sculptures could have been done some one way, some the other.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Or make the neck hole closer to head sized? :mrgreen:

[A_Volpe]

arklore70 -

I find using a so-called waist-scarf/sash works well to 'hide' the hanging flap of the pulled-up tunic material after tying it up on the waist. I too use a long leather thong to tie it up. I happen to currently use a linen wrap for the sash, I want to eventually make a stiff wool one. Tying the sash nice and snug around the body helps with comfort and putting on armor as well.

One of these days I'll experiment with a leather strap 'baldric' to hold up the really bulky upper part of the tunic when not in armor, as an alternative to the neck-knot, looking to replicate what I've seen in the Fayum encaustic portraits. Some argue that baldric is indicative of a soldier, and it's alleged there is just visible a pommel...But I have yet to see it for myself, and don't really subscribe to the argument it represents a soldier - But that is not to say that some sort of strap could be used as another way to tighten up the loose bulky bits of a tunic.

[M. Demetrius]

Or make the neck hole closer to head sized?

Of course that works, but from looking at the mosaics and such, it isn't the way that was commonly done. :wink: Seems like the large neck hole allows for dropping the garment over the shoulder, and exposing the right arm and shoulder, presumably for hard work. Others who have more info on clothing can probably add to that.

Dudicus: that sash is a great help, and it does seem to make the tunic work better. I have a wool one for colder weather, and a linen one for other times. About five yards long, it wraps over 4 times around the middle, and makes the whole thing work more easily, plus giving a "pocket" when not under armor for a wax tablet or a purse, or a money bag. I guess it would still be good for that under armor, but it wouldn't be accessible any more. Heh. Not much need for spending money on the battlefield anyway, eh? :roll:

[Graham Sumner]

Hello Andy

One of these days I'll experiment with a leather strap 'baldric' to hold up the really bulky upper part of the tunic when not in armor, as an alternative to the neck-knot, looking to replicate what I've seen in the Fayum encaustic portraits. Some argue that baldric is indicative of a soldier, and it's alleged there is just visible a pommel...But I have yet to see it for myself, and don't really subscribe to the argument it represents a soldier -

One of the clearest examples is the portrait now in the Manchester (UK) Museum. However many of the details are really only clear if you are lucky enough to see the original. A good photograph is in the superb book on the Fayum portraits by E. Doxiadis.

The strap in this and other portraits comes over the left shoulder with alternate bronze and silvered discs and is usually described as a baldric. However as you can see the pommel of the sword in this portrait the 'baldric' looks to be at a very high angle. This could of course be poor draughtmanship on the part of the artist but could also show the type of belt described by Fuentes, which is visible on the Chatsworth relief. He called this belt a pouch belt as it is similar to those worn by nineteenth century cavalry. Sadly the portraits rarely show waist level which would prove this one way or the other.

Nevertheless it has also been pointed out that the strap on the Chatsworth relief possibly belongs to the record boxes that the soldiers are carrying. However I have seen a couple of reconstructions with the tunic worn with such a belt and you do see the folds on the tunic corresponding with those on the relief. Fuentes proposed that the belt stopped the wide tunic from getting caught or entangled with the sword and allowing access to the sword. The experiments proved that this happened.

As is always the case this is not proof such a system existed and it can also be pointed out that apart from the possible existence of these belts on a number of Fayum portraits, the Chatsworth relief appears to be the only known example of this type of belt.

Graham.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Or make the neck hole closer to head sized?

Of course that works, but from looking at the mosaics and such, it isn't the way that was commonly done. :wink: Seems like the large neck hole allows for dropping the garment over the shoulder, and exposing the right arm and shoulder, presumably for hard work. Others who have more info on clothing can probably add to that.

Dudicus: that sash is a great help, and it does seem to make the tunic work better. I have a wool one for colder weather, and a linen one for other times. About five yards long, it wraps over 4 times around the middle, and makes the whole thing work more easily, plus giving a "pocket" when not under armor for a wax tablet or a purse, or a money bag. I guess it would still be good for that under armor, but it wouldn't be accessible any more. Heh. Not much need for spending money on the battlefield anyway, eh? :roll:

Yet the only example of tunics I habve seen the yseem to have relatively small openings..

But I know where your coming from on this...just a tounge in cheek suggestion!

[M. Demetrius]

Maybe both sorts were made, some for people who had to be ready to do work, like plebians, slaves, and soldiers, and some who never did much physical work. Graham, any input?

[arklore70]

All great points. I just get the feeling that there is something easy we might be missing. Has anyone ever been able to tie any sort of neck knot themselves while wearing a a proper sized tunic?
R/

[Magnus]

Yes. My first tunic was a rectangular one, with a large neck-hole. I don't think I had that much material bundled though where it interfered with my neck-guard, or was uncomfortable under my armour. Maybe try bundling less material? Use a thinner thong to tie it with too.

[Cheyenne]

I would say that a 1st/2nd century military tunic wouldn't ordinarily hang at the mid calves when unbelted. Examples of sleeved tunics usually do, but not sleeveless varieties. As a rule of thumb, they are generally 110cm long by 105cm wide ..

I have made a number of these, both with and without in-stitched clavii and, according to the impressions of the sicilian mosaics and the wall friezes at herculaneum, the majority were much shorter than is mentioned here.

If you have further evidence to the contrary, i'd love to know, as I'd like to put some variation into the structure of some of the military orders.

Cheers

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Well, I was going by the advice given here and in Sumers Roman Military Clothing Osprey. I just ass u meed the shorter tunics were for shorter men.It does seem to give a lot of extra padding to the middriff. I am getting bored explaining why I look like I stole the chefs wok all the time! :roll: :lol: