Northern Italy : Etruscans - Celts

[Conal]

Similarly the scutum appears earliest in Italy, at a time when the Celts were apparently using small round shields, so the Celts seem to have adopted and simplified ( their version was flat ) the scutum.

What sources do you have for the scutum showing up earliest in Italy?

Also what source says the Celtic shield pre scutum was small & round?

Would also appreciate any timings you could put on this

cheers

[Paullus Scipio]

.....see what I mean, Shane ?
You try to be helpful, post some information off the top of yer head, and of course someone wants sources etc....thanks a heap, Conal ! ( ........oh, well, serves me right for leading with my chin...I'll have to go check things out, and will probably discover I have misremembered things.......... "AFIK" and "apparently" don't get me off the hook !!
I'll see what I can come up with, Conal :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

O.K. before starting I'm going to give a quick disclaimer ! There are many who dislike use of the term "Celtic" culture in respect of the late Iron age.
So, before Sulla Felix or others jump on me for using the term, I'm going to try and avoid it here !
Evidence for scutum in Italy:-
I'm going to define scutum as large ovoid or rectangular body-shield distinguished by a spindle- shaped boss, with a horizontal handle.
The earliest depictions I'm aware of come from Italy - the 7th century B.C. statuette from Este in Etruria, the bronze spinaboss from Malpasso, and the model (votive? toy?) shield from Vetulonia, and also the Certosa situla.
What sources say pre-scutum shield round?
At this time, the 'Halstatt' late-bronze/early iron- age culture (roughly defined as from circa 800-600 B.C.)were using round single handled shields, see e.g. Villanovan examples, and circular shield bosses from central European Halstatt grave sites. Now I don't want to side track this discussion by getting into debate about "Celtic" culture, and whether there was such a thing, so I shall arbitrarily call the Halstatt culture 'proto-celtic' for the purposes of this discussion.
The next (rather arbitrarily defined) culture is that termed 'La Tene'(450 B.C onward), and it is tribes who show cultural affinities with this group that the greeks termed Kelts and the Romans Gauls, and who invaded the Po valley in several waves from the 4th century B.C. It is from this time that the earliest known depiction of the 'Celtic' flat scutum with spindle shaped bosses comes, on a 4th century B.C. sword scabbard, which, while of 'La Tene' culture, was, rather confusingly, found at Halstatt !
Now I know that hot debate waxes over defining 'Celtic' ( some include late Halstatt) and Halstatt/La Tene cultures ( some say the join is seamless! ) and even the very idea of labeling peoples with these names, but I hope I have clarified what I was referring to in the earlier post!

[Paullus Scipio]

To try to shed a little light on Severus' original question, in the 8th century B.C. Northern Italy was inhabited by various 'tribes' of late bronze/early iron age culture ( there is no clear-cut boundary between the two) of Halstatt/Villanovan type. Around 750 B.C. a highly developed civilisation appears, who bury their dead in tumulii. These are the earliest Etruscans, who even ancient authors thought immigrated from somewhere "further East". They build cities among the Villanovan villages and soon dominate Northern Italy, spreading north to the Alps, and south to Rome, founding many cities. In fact it is likely that it was the Etruscans who turned some scattered Hill-top villages into the city that was to become Rome......They become a significant 'empire', but of around a dozen or so loosely linked city- states.They are also a sea power, trading all over the mediterranean, and inter-acting and fighting Greeks and Carthaginians. By the 4th century, their once thriving economies apparently go into rapid decline and they collapse to external military pressure. In the north a succession of 'Gallic' tribes - the Insubres whose capital becomes Milan, then the Boii, Lingones, Cenomani and others all invade and acquire land down the Po valley, and finally the Senones who settle on the East coast around Ancona. The Gauls/Senones under Brennus even sack Rome !!
In the South, the Romans become independent and drive out the Etruscans, then slowly spread into Etruria. Ina series of wars they defeat the Etruscans and absorb their territories. By the beginning of the third century in desperation they join a coalition with the Samnites, Umbrians and Celts, to no avail. By 265 B.C Roman colonies are established in the heart of Etruria, and the Etruscans days of greatness are gone. By the time Hannibal tries to recruit them(217 B.C.) as allies they no longer see themselves as independent and stick with Rome......
Some useful books about the Etruscans are :-
"The search for the Etruscans" - James Wellard pub. Thomas Nelson and sons ltd
" The Etruscans" - Werner Keller, translated and published in English by Jonathon Cape

[Conal]

Paul
thanks .. you are a star

There is a post on here, which i can't find, which argues for a route via Spain for the scuta. I think it was Amrosius ...i did print it off so will try and find it at home.

[barcid]

Paul
thanks .. you are a star

Indeed Paul all your posts are well researched & interesting , Good on Ya Mate :wink:

[Paullus Scipio]

Conal wrote:

There is a post on here, which i can't find, which argues for a route via Spain for the scuta. I think it was Amrosius ...i did print it off so will try and find it at home.

I would be interested to see the reasoning for this....AFIK, the scutum is known in Italy (7C BC ) centuries before similar shields appear in Spain ( 3C BC) where they appear to have been introduced in the North via Celts, and the South East via Carthage, who very likely created Spanish scutarii as a troop type......

BTW, Spanish mercenaries were famous in the Mediterranean World from quite an early date. Thucydides(VI.90) has Alcibiades speak of Iberian mercenaries, as “recognised as being the best fighting material to be found in those partsâ€

[Paullus Scipio]

Thank you Conal and Dave for your kind words.....much appreciated ! D

[PMBardunias]

BTW, Spanish mercenaries were famous in the Mediterranean World

I cannot recall the quote, though I am sure you can, where a Roman is comparing his troops to Gauls who he says are bigger and stronger and Spaniards who he admits are better fighters.

[Caturix]

The people that lived in Northen Italy before the Etruscan occupation were Raethians and Ligurians.

Funny thing is that the terms "Raethians" and "Ligurians" probably defined the same kind of people (some alpes tribes like the Triumplini, Camuni and Stoni are sometimes adressed as Rathians, sometimes as Ligurians)... after the Etruscan invasion, and aftermore the Gaulish one, the Pre-Indeuropean (probably) peoples that lived in Northern Italy retired in peripherical and impervious zones, like the Alps and Liguria.

Normally "Ligurians" is used for define the indigenous communities that were deeply influenced by the Celts and "Raethians" for the indigenous communities that were deeply influenced by the Etruscans, and even if the historians tried to divide this two groups, one in Liguria and the other in the Alps/Venetia context, the cultural borders aren't absolutely clear.

(CFR. PLIN., N.H., 3, 133; and LIV., 5, 35 and 21, 38 )

P.S.
about long socketed "pilum-like" javelins, the first evidences are from Villanova culture (Proto-Etruscan), but probably the Celts start to use them after contacts with the Umbro-Sabellic tribes (in fact the "pilum-like" javelins are the "saunion", a characteristic samnite weapon)