Deepeeka AH3264E pugio

[Tiberius]

I would like to know the origin of the pugio Deepeeka has copied that has four decorated brass plates riveted to the scabbard. I believe Dan Peterson has a picture of one in his book, The Roman Legions Recreated in Color Photographs. He writes in the book that it, along with the other pugios, is based upon "original excavated specimens." From where?


Jeff/Tiberius
LEG~XX

[Crispvs]

Ahem, 'based on' is something of an understatement. What Dan obviously did not realise is that the sheath featured in his book was an erroneous reconstruction by Michael Simkins of a silver inlaid iron sheath featuring additional rivetted decoration, which Simpkins had presumably seen line drawings of which he then misinterpreted.

There is no evidence at all for Roman dagger sheaths featuring applied brass plates. There are examples of wholly brass sheaths, and there is one example of an iron sheath with a brass terminal expansion, but there is not a shred of evidence for an iron sheath with brass plates riveted (or in any other way attached for that matter) to it in the normal positions for the usual fields of decoration.
The original sheath from Kempton, which Simkins based his reconstruction on, is a normal type 'A' sheath with inlaid silver and rivetted decoration. I do not have a photo of the Kempton sheath I can post up but here is a photo of a very similar one from Cetina:



Don't believe everything you see in reconstructions or read in books (what Dan says in his book about dagger handles falls somewhat short of a clear and accurate statement). This is not always the fault of the author (although it very often is), or even the publisher. It is important however for us to try to return to actual source material so that we can examine the statements in books with a more informed mind.

You were right to ask the question and I am happy to offer any other help and advice on pugiones you might want.

Crispvs

[zugislander]

Crispvs,

Does the above mean that if the brass plates on the Deepeka pugio in question were "silver" instead that it would be reasonably accurate? It appears that way from the picture and my reading of your description.

Thanks for your assistance.

Cordially,

Michael

[Peroni]

Does the above mean that if the brass plates on the Deepeka pugio in question were "silver" instead that it would be reasonably accurate?

No. The silver that Crispvs refers to is inlaid silver wire decoration. (inlaid into the scabbard metal) Not applied plates. Perhaps it can be seen better in this picture of a sheath from Carnuntum..
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b242/ ... nuntum.jpg

[Matthew Amt]

Avete!

What I recall from the firestorm on this very question a couple years ago is that Peterson said that scabbard in his book was based on a *hypothetical* reconstruction endorsed by Simkins and Junkelmann. The theory is that since so many surviving inlaid scabbards have rivets or fake rivets at the corners of the four "zones" of decoration, that those *must* reflect an earlier style in which those were actually plates riveted on. But as Crispus says, NOTHING like that has been found! (And Crispus is, as you might have gathered, Da Man for pugio information!)

Once the facts were established, I declared the AH3264E pugio to be "unacceptable" for Legio XX use, and built replacement scabbards for several of our guys who already had it. Deepeeka's version of the Leeuwen pugio, AH3264B, is still happily acceptable. (We're also looking forward to the final tweaks on their new plain-scabbard pugio.)

Whew! Took me a few tries, but I got through all that without any bad words or really nasty sarcasm! Aren't I a good boy?

Valete,

Matthew

[Robert Vermaat]

Whew! Took me a few tries, but I got through all that without any bad words or really nasty sarcasm! Aren't I a good boy?

Well done Matt (pat on the back). :wink:

[Gaius_Calvus]

Deepeeka's version of the Leeuwen pugio, AH3264B, is still happily acceptable. (We're also looking forward to the final tweaks on their new plain-scabbard pugio.)

Matt -- I just bought one of the new "Plain" DPKa steel pugiones and it is really nice. Hilt has the correct shape and the suspension loops are in the right place.

DPKa used all of Peronis' suggestions and the one I have for our loaner kits is first class.

The hilt of the brass beaded version as also been corrected, looks alot like the mods you show on your website (which is still the best in the world).

If you go to the Soul of the Warrior website, Rusty has taken several side-by-side photos of the new pugiones and you can get a good feel for their appearance.

Just thought you'd like to know.

And, yes, I thought you were very polite. :lol:

Regards,

Edge

[Robert]

Any chance of Deepeeka offering a simple set of their newly tweeked Leeuwen pugio and a go along period gladius in a RAT offer?? With helmets flying around galore, this may be worth considering. It would be a boost to a lot of "new entries" to have something basicly correct for mid to late 1ste century to hang from their belts and straps.

[Crispvs]

Thanks for the complinment Matthew.

Zugislander,

Just to clear up any confusion, there is no evidence which I know of for any sort of decorative plates or appliques being attached to the front plates of Roman dagger sheaths. I do not know of any evidence for them on the earlier Spanish daggers either (although Lucius Alfenus Avitianus) knows more about Spanish daggers than I do).

Metal and/or enamel inlay was the normal method of decoration, along with the occasional use of decorative rivets. I can give you a more detailed description of the basic styles of decoration if you want.

Crispvs

[Aurelianus]

Should we not change tis topic to marketplace-Deepeeka?

[Crispvs]

No, I think that Re-enactment and Reconstruction is the right place. We are talking about the accuracy of the piece and how, as a reconstruction, it compares with the real thing, rather than asking about a purchase or recommending changes to Deepeeka. As far as I know (and certainly hope) they have already stopped making this item, in favour of the more accurate versions that we recommended and Peronis was able to help them produce.

Crispvs

[Caius Fabius]

I agree