A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300

[geala]

There were about 7000 Greeks at Thermopylae. I doubt they would have been able to flank and beat the Persian army which consisted at least of 40000-60000 combatants (and perhaps 100000 others).

Thermopylae can not be seen isolated. For me the only reason to defend the pass was to force the Persian fleet in a fight in the narrow sea area between Euboia and the mainland. At least some Greeks knew that without the fleet the Persian chances in Hellas were not so good because it was quite impossible to supply the huge army without the ships.

And the battle at Artemision and the loss of the 200 Persian ships sailing around Euboia were very good starters for the Greeks. I think the Spartans only had had doubts about this strategy and did not want to adventure everything only on it, far away from the Peloponnes. They could not stay aside totally (and repeat the arkward experience with Marathon) so they sent only a small part of the army first. They must have known that some of their allies in middle Greece were not very reliable and the Persian army huge, therefore it was seen as a very dangerous task.

So I think the 300 were not the hippeis but a selection of all with children. The difference to our feelings today ("not him, he has family, buhuhuu") was one of the first remarkable hints about the diversity of human societies I received (with a little shock) when I read about it first some 30 years ago.

[Ghostmojo]

I could be wrong here, but my take was this:

The "300" were usually taken from the age groups in their prime i.e. the 20-29 year olds. At 30 the Spartiates could marry and start reproducing etc. One of their other useful functions. :roll:

They were usually selected by three 'Hippagretai' who selected 100 each. I think this might be 100 each from the three Dorian sub-groups(?). On occasion we read about the King having a bodyguard of 100 men just to confuse issues.

Who knows how many accompanied the Kings when they both went into war (until Kleomenes I and Demaratos' little tiff put a stop to that practice)?

Thermopylai was a very atypical campaign. Usually the army went out with the Hippeis a component of the larger force. This time the army stayed put due to the Karneia - but Leonidas I was allowed to take his bodyguard (which fell under his own personal command). Leonidas either directly selected 300 older men to replace the current unmarried members of his guard - or the Hippagretai did it for him.

The King usually had tent companions on campaign, and despite the small number who went with him (300 plus perhaps 300 helots?) it is possible the Hippagretai formed sub-commanders alongside him. If so, the total of Spartiates would be 304 by my calculations (somewhat at odds with Victor Davis Hanson's view of King + 299 men!!! :lol: ). Perhaps two of the four 'Pythioi' went? But I doubt any Ephors did. The seer Megistias was from Akarnania and not from Lakonia - who knows how this occurred?

So we can argue whether the 300 who accompanied him were the Hippeis or not - but by clarifying what the Hippeis were perhaps we can agree on something. The Hippeis were 'horsemen' or 'knights' who no longer rode into battle but preserved the title as an honorary thing. In my opinion it really doesn't matter what age group they came from to be selected. The usual instance was for single unmarried men - but for all the reasons we know in this instance they were not of those age groups, but older. They would still rank as Hippeis regardless of age, or selection process, in my view. But even if somebody disagreed that they should be called the Hippeis - then they would still be the King's personal Royal Guard.

I wonder who protected the other King who stayed at home? :wink:

And of course - despite being a hugely enjoyable romp ... the film "300" has more in common with Tolkien than it does Herodotos!!! The 1962 version wasn't a whole lot better and I'm holding out for a third 'Gladiator' style epic (in which apparently both Bruce willis and George Clooney have been most interested in playing the lead Spartan role). 8) based around Stephen Pressfield's interesting take "Gates Of Fire".

[hoplite14gr]

Howard in all probabilty most Hippeis accompanying Leonidas were minimum 30 but probably over 30. Probably 35 to 40 veterans of the Argos and Samos Campaigns that happened before the Persian invasion.

The 8 Morae had members from all three doric tribes (Hylleis, Dymanes, Pamfilleis even Acheans from Pylos Gerionthrae and Sparta proper).

So chances are that the Hippeis were selected as the best form the Mora rather than the best from the tribe.

The king had two bodyguards -olympic champions if we believe Plutarch.

Kind regards

[Anonymous]

IAnd of course - despite being a hugely enjoyable romp ... the film "300" has more in common with Tolkien than it does Herodotos!!!

Linking Tolkien's name, in any way, with that film is an outrageous insult to Tolkien.

[Ghostmojo]

... Linking Tolkien's name, in any way, with that film is an outrageous insult to Tolkien.

Perhaps I should have said Peter Jackson then? :wink:

However, the size of those elephants entering the pass reminds me of the oliphaunts on the Pelenor Fields.

Since I'm a big fan of both Tolkien (and what Peter Jackson did with TLOTR cinematically) and Herodotos (and what Frank Miller did with his re-imagining of Thermopylai - and the subsequent film-fantasy as well) ... I have no real problem with any of it. 8)

[Casmin]

so they only risked 300, they didn't know about the sheep path until it was too late, because isn't it logical to send greek toops through that path, then outflanking the persians, and forcing them to surrender, and ephialtes knew because he lived nearby?

The spartans knew of the path. They had a contingent of allies guarding it.

[hoplite14gr]

At the time tha path was known only to the Phokians.
They adviced Leonidas and he tasked them to guard it.

Actually it is not one path but two with limited visual contact between them
and three if you count the bed of a nearby stream.

The Phokian contignent was lagely composed of psiloi and ekdromoi that were made short work by the Persians and forced to retreat.
The hold long enough to sent someone to worn the others.

It is aspeculation that Leonidas tried to use the Thespians to block the path at the other exit but they failed.

The path was fatal both in 279 and in 191 B.C. It was also forced in 1941.
Kind regards