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A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - Gladius Hispaniensis - 06-12-2007
Ave
I know many people are by now probably sick and tired of hearing about the 300 at Thermopylae
but I have a very pertinent question - I know that Spartan kings always had a hippeis of exactly 300 bodyguards.Is it just a coincidence that the number of Spartiates Leonidas hand-picked to stay with him after the Greeks were outflanked at Thermopylae was exactly 300 or were these hoplites indeed the king's personal hippeis?
Thanks in advance.
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - Anonymous - 06-12-2007
The story is that the Spartans were forbidden war during a religious festival which happened to fall just when they were needed at Thermopylae. Leonidas, unlike many of his compatriots, felt it was worthwhile trying to stop the Persians before they even reached the Peloponnese. To circumvent the law, he announced that he was going on a journey to the north. As a king, he couldn't possibly go without a proper honour guard - hence the 300. I read in one of Victor Davis Hanson's books (IIRC - I haven't got it to hand)) that every Hoplite took three Helots with him on campaign and that these were fighting men. Thus, the king had 1200 men at his disposal, even before the other poleis of the Peloponnessus made their contribution.
Leonidas\' 300 - Paullus Scipio - 06-12-2007
If only it were that simple........ according to the legend, Leonidas dismissed all those who did not have living sons (IIRC, I haven't checked)- thus most of the Hippeis ( drawn from the young men) would have been dismissed..... so who formed the 300 ???
Leonidas\' 300 - Paullus Scipio - 06-12-2007
p.s. Herodotus VII(203) says" The three hundred men whom he (Leonidas) brought on this occasion to Thermopylae were chosen by himself, all fathers of living sons". So not the Hippeis then.But this pre-supposes that Leonidas had a premonition regarding the outcome - in other words part of the subsequent legend, 20-20 hindsight.
If the religious festival ( Karneia, according to Herodotus ) that had prevented any Spartans going to Marathon applied, what had changed to allow Spartans to march with Leonidas ( and what was the KING doing breaking a religious taboo ? ), and, presumably to serve as marines aboard the Spartan contingent of the fleet ?
Very hard to get at the history behind the legend !!!
Re: Leonidas\' 300 - Jona Lendering - 06-12-2007
Quote:If only it were that simple........ according to the legend, Leonidas dismissed all those who did not have living sons (IIRC, I haven't checked)- thus most of the Hippeis ( drawn from the young men) would have been dismissed..... so who formed the 300 ???Indeed, not the hippeis, Herodotus' testimony about the fathers and sons (7.205) is crucial. However, this is not the "legend" part of Herodotus' story; I will not call it "true", but it is certainly belongs to that part of his account that Herodotus believed was true. As so often, we do not have sufficient information to answer even the most basic questions.
Leonidas\' 300 - Paullus Scipio - 06-12-2007
Yes, indeed, it only tells us that already by Herodotus day ( some 60 years after Thermopylae) legend had already overtaken history..........
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - hoplite14gr - 06-12-2007
Info on Hippagretas and IPPEIS-horsemen selection process comes from Xenophon "Lakedemonion Politeia". The selection for the elite formation might have changed in 90 years.
Hippeis were a honor title in Archaic period as the use of the horse declined in Greece. They were selected from all eight Morae. They just might also included members of the Aegidae or Talthybiadae Clans
Each Mora had 400 to 600 Homioi so it was not difficult to select roughly 40 men form each Mora who had sons.
Kind regards
Leonidas\' 300 - Paullus Scipio - 06-13-2007
Quite right, Stefanos - Xenophon (3.3.9 ) refers to the Hippagretai - the choosers of the Hippeis . The Hippagretai were chosen by the Ephors from "the men in their prime", and the context of the 'Constitution' implies that there was considerable rivalry for the honour, and they were picked from among the young men ( and from an anecdote, Olympic winners and the like ).
Selected forces of 300 crop up several times in Spartan history, e.g. in Herodotus (1.82.3 ) - Battle of the Champions,(7.202)- Thermopylae,(9.64.2) - Messenian revolt.
A simple explanation presents itself. One enomotia of 25 men chosen by lot from each of/"all the Lochoi " (as was also done to garrison Sphacteria ) assuming the commonly accepted number of 12 Lochoi , 2 Lochoi per Mora ,and the common 25 age classes of the 40 called up.
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - hoplite14gr - 06-13-2007
Nemean Isthimian or Pythian award winners will probably had increased chances to be chosen for selection. Xenophon said that except prowess and bravery they must had character too. He talks about "ARETI".
Based on Plutarchs "Laconian sayngs" we know that the king had 2 bodyguards that were Olympic champions carrying the Dokana on their shields. A Herald who was traditionally from the Talthybiadae family was acompanying the King to act as messanger or ambassador if need be.
Kind regards
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - Anonymous - 06-15-2007
I did qualify my comments with the opening, "The story is..". I did then leave out the details of the supposed selection procedure, since I didn't consider it essential in answering the original question.
I'm not sure Leonidas would need a premonition to guide his decison- making: The odds were against the Greeks, even if they were re-inforced and, the longer it took re-inforcements to arrive, the higher the risk. It sounds a bit like Joshua, who needed to minimise his force for different reasons, and found convenient ways to exclude many of his men. Leonidas, acting independently of his gods, nonetheless tries to placate them (or Public Opinion) by making a show of taking just the standard number of travelling companions for a king, and uses a technique which gives him an elite force of veterans with nothing to lose but their lives ( a mere bagatelle!).
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - Jona Lendering - 06-15-2007
My personal opinion is that we need to know more about the taboo itself. If it was "Thou shalt not fight in the sacred month", we have a problem. If it was "You will die if you fight in the sacred month", the problem disappears: Leonidas, selecting 300 fathers, was on a kamikaze mission (as Cartledge calls it) and actually sought dead (devotio).
Another idea. As far as I know, several Spartan battles in the sacred month are recorded during the Peloponnesian War. Was the taboo a pretext?
Yet another idea. What do we actually know about the Spartan calendar? We know that Athens used two calendars, a sacred and a civil one. To comedians, this offered great opportunities: imagine the gods arriving on the wrong day for their sacrifice. In an age in which calendars could be adjusted randomly -even a pious king like Alexander the Great did it at least on two occasions- it would be possible that Leonidas intercalated a month while his colleague did not.
I think it is reasonable to conclude that Thermopylae will remain, as Hignett states, "an unsolved riddle". Finding new cuneiform evidence is not excluded (100,000 uninspected tablets in the British Museum alone!) but given the narrow geographical focus of those texts, I think the chance is very small.
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - Giannis K. Hoplite - 06-15-2007
Paul,I haven't heard befor that a king needed his 300 to make a walk!A "guard" was protecting the king in battle,but have you got any other examples were the king had 300 men with him(for example in Delphi or anywhere else)?Remember that there were two kings,so what,there were 600 hippes?No,just in battle only one king was leading(after some point) and thus the state offered 300 men to fight with the king.Thus,why is the whole action considered Leonidas' only idea?
Spartans were very religious(1)
Spartans were the leading state of the allies in land and sea(2)
Persians were already in Macedonia(alredy under Persian contron after 492) and were heading South into free states(3)
Spartans had a reputation that was vital for them(4)
The Greeks North would be helpless making it inevitable to surrender, leaving the rest of the allies without the Boeotian infantry and the Thessalian cavalry(something that happened and became nearly disastrous in Plataea)(5)
We cannot ignore the pressure from Athens and other cities north of the Isthmos.We know this pressure could do mirracles in Salamis!(6)
These and more reasons are not importand and obvious enough for the Ephors to think?Why should we follow the logic of the movie 300,that the king Leonidas was the cleverest and the bravest and everyone else in Sparta was blind?We already admited that much of the story is legent.Had Leonidas and the rest not died we would probably know the story different.
In my opinion Leonidas and the 300 were the victims of Spartan policy.Not saying that it was not correct,but the Spartan "chimaera" required that Sparta had to send something,not to save the other Greeks,nor to stop Persians with this force.If they could gather other Greeks arround them,the better,and if they stoped Persians for some days,even better.
The fact that these men were chosen and were not the Hippes,is another fact supporting that the force was meant by the state to go in Thermopylae.
Khairete
Giannis
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - floofthegoof - 06-21-2007
I have often heard of a large contingent of helots joining up with the Spartans. What is the basis for this theory?
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - hoplite14gr - 06-22-2007
Each hoplite was attended by a servant and Herodotus mentions five servants (helots) per OMOIOS hoplite in Platea. These people could be induced to take risks either by being promished freedom of allowed to purchase it from the spoils.
During the Pelopeonessian War manpower crisis forced Spartans to assign a growing number of Helot hoplites to expeditionary forces.
Kind regards
Re: A question regarding Leonidas\'s 300 - DanM - 07-10-2007
It could be possible that they knew the hoplites were better than the persians, so they only risked 300, they didn't know about the sheep path until it was too late, because isn't it logical to send greek toops through that path, then outflanking the persians, and forcing them to surrender, and ephialtes knew because he lived nearby? And what evidence besides written history do we have to say who won thermopylae? And also we can compare this to the trojan war, it happened, then quickly became fogged by legend.