The Scots declare their Scythian connections...

[Treveri Gaul]

Hello All.


This is very interrested website:

http://www.giveshare.org/israel/arbroat ... ation.html

[hoplite14gr]

I read a vesrion of the Irish "book of Conquests".
It say that Nuada of the De Danaan had 12 Skythian bodyguards at the battle of Moy Tura.

Kind regards

[Robert Vermaat]

Medieval claim-game, nothing more. I mean, why would this be of relevance:

Another Scottish connection to the Scythians is that, according to legend, Andrew, one of Christ's apostles, preached to the Scythians. St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland. The Scottish flag contains a Cross of Saint Andrew.

'The Skythians' no longer existed in St. Andrews time, and certainly not when the irish began migrating into Pictland.
Nor are 'The Skythians' any more the ancestors of the Irish then 'The Trojans' are the ancestors of the British, which was of course another claim in those days.

It's much more significant that such claims were taken seriously during the 13th and 14th centuries, which tells us a lot about the people of that period, but nothing of their distant ancestors.

This, however, is pure nonsense:

The ancient tribe of the Scythians once lived in the area to which the "Lost Ten Tribes of Israel" were deported by the Assyrian Empire (according to the Bible and historical sources).

[Agraes]

Robert, there *might* be a real cleam behind this. An irish tradition would like to have some Sarmatians as the founders of the Dal Riatta who will be later installed in Pictland. Those Sarmatians would have come from Britain, where there were once garrisonned by Romans.

Here just a quote from our description of Dal Riada at ATW:

The Dal Riada, called Darini on Ptolemy's map of Ireland, were said to be a tribe of Scythians, or, later, even possibly Sarmatians. This would not be impossible; during the rule of Rome in Britain, the Irish record buying off Sarmatian auxilia and giving them land in Ireland, as well as the Fennihe, or Fennian tribes, obsession with horse archery. These tribes brought many Scythians and Sarmatians to Ireland, and they were given several colonies, as well as Irish wives.

Regardless of their origin, the Dal Riada were thoroughly Gaelic in culture. As early as 100 AD, they began to set up colonies in the land of Earraghaidheal, or Argyll; 'coast of Gaels'. This was in Pictland, but a relatively undeveloped place, and often overlooked. However, as pressure from the Ui Neill increased, the Dal Riada surrendered more of their lands in Ireland, and began mass-migrating to this new land. The center of their clan moved from Dun Ranma in Ireland, to Dunnad in Argyll. Technically, the Dal Riada were actually several clans and tribes, such as the Baetan, but this meant little; power was squarely in the hands of the Dal Riada.

[Robert Vermaat]

Benjamin,

For one, I'm a bit wary of all these claims that the Sarmatians are supposedly behind every tribe and legend they throw at me.
Secondly, if you read the text it's clear that the claim is nonsense:

Regardless of their origin, the Dal Riada were thoroughly Gaelic in culture. As early as 100 AD, they began to set up colonies in the land of Earraghaidheal, or Argyll; 'coast of Gaels'. This was in Pictland, but a relatively undeveloped place, and often overlooked.

Thoroughly Gaelic means no Sarmatian influence, and 100AD is long before the Sarmatians even entered Britannia.
'Scythia' is Medieval for 'we don't know for sure, but we think from the East'. It's not meant to be a detailed reference to some ancient ancestral memory. it's similar to the claim of Anglo-Saxon kings that they descended from Woden and/or Augustus.

[Agraes]

And Britons from Brutus



Yes, Im aware there were no Sarmatian around in Britain in 100 AD. But there is actually a possibility of Sarmatians beeing installed in Ireland after having deserted to the profit of Gaels. I know you are a bit skeptical about this, and you are right to do so, Ill probably do the same :wink:

[Robert Vermaat]

But there is actually a possibility of Sarmatians beeing installed in Ireland after having deserted to the profit of Gaels. I know you are a bit skeptical about this, and you are right to do so, Ill probably do the same :wink:

Well, there is a possibility they came from Mars. :wink:

But seriously, I have discussed the 'free-roaming' Sarmatians with Dr Linda Malcor long enough to know that there is no physical evidence for large numbers of Sarmatians being present in Britannia (or indeed Ireland) beyond the Ribchester unit. Most theories are based on whishful thinking and much, much later medieval writings that might not even have known any Sarmatian connection.Most likely, the Sarmatians brought over in the late 2nd c. never settled there, but were quickly used in the ensuing conflicts and civil wars in the following decade...

Ben, the 'Romans in Ireland' discussion is already such a hot topic that i would not dare to burn my finger on that one without any supporting physical evidence, let alone one about Sarmatians being 'stationed' there!! :roll:

[Agraes]

Ill ask Ranika about this maybe. Well, Im not a strong supporter of the "Sarmatian connection" in Britain! :wink:

[Treveri Gaul]

Hello.

How can this be resolved? Britannia not have " sarmatian connection"?Really? :lol: I wrote articles in this topic " Last sleep in Avalon". The Dragonhead motivum. Battle of Carrhae the Scithyan-Hungaryan tribe have in the flag, Dragonhead motivum. This tribe the ÚZ tribe. Now, lived Nord-East Hungary. / Born and raised with 'em/ The ÚZ leader's name Pacenus/Becse= contains are dearer/ the Roman leader Crassus.

The another tribe, have Heavy Cavalry scythian-alán-úz-parthian-sarmatian.

This cavalry ancestor in middle age, The Heavy English cavalry.

[Agraes]

For what I have understand...

Well, the draco enseign was used by both Late Roman cavalry and infantry. Yes it was borrowed to the Sarmatians but this is very little to claim a so strong "sarmatian connection" in Britain...

[Treveri Gaul]

...............very little to claim a so strong "sarmatian connection" in Britain.../Agraes/Really?

In the Britain history found many white patch, but in the Hungaryan history found answer to that question.

For example, Tor " mountain " in Glastonbury. Burial place for Arthur? Maybe. In the Hungarian language have a sword T O R = Funeral holiday. The relatives met for the sake of eating, drinking. This is the TOR. We have TOR mountain. The first Hungaryan tribes group have chef, they called Ã

[lup_alb]

Sorry but in the age when Celts and Dacians had erected menhirs, the hungarians didn't even existed. Hungarians had a huge impact on western civilization but much later.

[Agraes]

Menhir and dolmen were actually constructed not by Celts but by neolithic people... And menhir is a very modern world constructed from Breton, but the world used in Breton is peulven... And this word of menhir is simply translated as "men" = stone and "hir" = long, so just a "long stone", nothing else.

Tor is a celtic word meaning 'conical hill'.

Just stop seeing similarities where there isn't. Im sure the hungarian and general steppic culture is very rich, but it have nothing to do with celtic or more specifically culture in sub-roman Britain.

[Ron Andrea]

I am certainly not one to defend the Sarmatian Connection, but to say that the "general steppe culture is very rich, but [has] nothing to do with celtic or more specifically culture in sub-roman Britain" may be erring a bit too far in the other direction. "Nothing" is a terribly absolute condition.

Lacy's The New Arturian Encyclopedia (Garland, 1996) cites ten sources supporting some variation of the "Sarmation Connection. (p.397)

For further reading, you might try Littleton and Malcor's From Scythia to Camelot (Routledge, 200), which Robert has effectively and properly savaged elsewhere. Still, there are tantalizing hints of some connection.

Robert's claim of no presence beyond the Ribcester unit identifies the opposite extreme.

[Robert Vermaat]

the "Sarmation Connection. (p.397)

SarmatiAn, I hope?

For further reading, you might try Littleton and Malcor's From Scythia to Camelot (Routledge, 200), which Robert has effectively and properly savaged elsewhere. Still, there are tantalizing hints of some connection.

Well, savaged, savaged. In fact I never savaged that book, only what Linda Malcor wrote long after it, and which went way (WAY!) beyond the conclusions of that book.

Robert's claim of no presence beyond the Ribcester unit identifies the opposite extreme.

Well, I would not say that this is an extreme conclusion.. But I'm always interested in hearing about more evidence.[/quote]