Scots in Roman service

[Fhyn]

Hi folks, been reading things, and well this has also been an interest of mine for a bit, but can never really get a nail down on it.

I know, in later years of roman army, they took in to service varied tribes of peoples for the army.

Does anyone know if any of the northern britain scots might of been in service also?

I know they were around, and had dealings with the romans, but am not certain any of them would of been part of any of the legions in Britain at the time.

Any help with this, would be greatly appreciated.

---------------------------
John Tibbs

Thanks

[Mitra]

If i remember correctly the scots arrived from Ireland in Caledonia several years after the roman leave the island; before this date all the scots in the sources are pirates from the Ireland not tribal raiders from the north.

I dont know not source that remembers scottish tribe like foederati (nor Pictish); different and possible that individuals or warbands can be enrolled how mercenaries.

ciao

[Ti Cl Nero]

Hi,
It may be of interset, though, considering that in roman sources Scotti are constantly paired with Atacotti.
This happens in distant sources as well (Ammianus and Jerome, for instance), which suggests that romans really believed in an ethnical closeness between the two groups.
Now, the storiographic debate about the real origin and identity of these groups is far from being definitively closed, but their Irish origin seems probable as Mitra correctly pointed out.
Though, we must face the total absence in sources of regular units originally recruited among Scots (or Pictish) , while we have four units in the Notita Dignitatum relating to Atacotti (all Auxilia Palatina): Atecotti, Honoriani Atecotti Seniores, Honoriani Atecotti iuniores, Atecotti Iuniores Gallicani.
This suggests a different approach to the problem of migration of some groups of the Atecotti – inclusing a possible settlement within the limites of the empire (in southern Wales) under some type of agreement - as happened with many other barbarian tribes; but this goes far off-topic.
Anyway this subject, and the possibility of late-empire foederates among Irish tribes, is deeply studied in: Rance, Philip - “Atacotti, Deisi and Magnus Maximus: the case for Irish Foederates in Late Roman Britainâ€

[Mitra]

Uè! Ciao Carlo

[Fhyn]

Thanks for the info Carlo, that was what I was looking for. At least the possibilty exists, and thats what I was looking for.

At least now have a few new lines to chase after for research.

Thanks again

[Ti Cl Nero]

You're very welcome John.
Birley - if I remember correctly - sees a link between this conscription and the revolt of 117 a.D. - the only relevant militiary event occurred in the area in the timespan covered by Vindolanda documents (though not mentioned in them).
Though there's no final proof, afaik, that Anavionenses were involved, A. Birley assumes that this may be the case - possibly as a consequence of the forced conscription.
Vale

[Ron Andrea]

Beware of confusing the then-current residents of a geographical area with future or even modern residents. As Mitra points out above, the Dal Raida tribe, progenitors of the Scots, started settling in the southwestern part of what is now Scotland a hundred years or more after the last legions left Britannia.

Geoffry Ashe (The Quest of Arthur's Britain, Academy, 1994, p. 30) states, "In the west, the shores were harassed by the Irish tribes whom the Romans called Scots, after one of their chief groups which had not yet settled in Caledonia. (emphasis added)

Tom Cahill's How the Irish Saved Civilization (Doubleday, 1995, p.185) likewise refers to Dalriada as covering "Irish Scotland and part of Ulster."

There were also "Irish" kingdoms in what is now Wales, including what became Dyfed in the southwest, descendents of "the Demetea, although ruled by an Irish dynasty during the late Roman period." (Angus Konstan, Historical Atlas of the Celtic World, Checkmark, 2001, p. 78 ) "Gwynedd was based around the territories of the Ordovices, and was named after its ruling Dynasty." (ibid.) Other sources refer to the "Irish kingdom of Gwynedd."

Sorry this doesn't add directly to answering the original question, but it's a response to the responses. :wink:

[Ti Cl Nero]

Beware of confusing the then-current residents of a geographical area with future or even modern residents. As Mitra points out above, the Dal Raida tribe, progenitors of the Scots, started settling in the southwestern part of what is now Scotland a hundred years or more after the last legions left Britannia.

Hello Ron,
no confusion here, we all agree about what you and Davide say.
One of the Irish tribes harassing the coasts which Ashe mentions are the Atacotti - as I said before, some groups of Atacotti also seem to have been settled in Wales by the Romans themselves (more, 4 units listed in the Notitia Dignitatum were raised among them), and this, according to the article I mentioned earlier about Irish federates, relates to Dyfed, as you say.
Scots, as we all agreed, weren't settled in Britain before legions left, nor we have units of Scots.
Anavionenes, again we agree, are a far different issue.

Simply, since the original question didn't, in my opinion, clearly state whether it referred to Scotti or , more generally, to people then living in "modern Scotland" (which, clearly, is not the same) , I mentioned both.

Vale

[Ron Andrea]

I totally agree.

I suspect that some Picts and Caledonians joined or were impressed into Roman service, but would have explected them to be distinctively identified.

On second thought, maybe not, as the some Romans apparently could not distinquish betwen Germanic and Celtic tribal groups. I assume, adopting the Greek attitude, to many Romans all outsiders were pretty much barbarians.

[Ti Cl Nero]

Ron,
sorry for editing my post (in order to make it clearer) while you were replying to it.
I think it is quite possible that Picts and Caledonians were recruited as singles or small groups in roman units - or also as independent bands of mercenaries , which I think happened more frequently in the second half of IV century at least on the continent (particularly with Goths).
In this latter circumstance, though being under an overall roman command, they would probably fight under their unit commanders and in their outfit.

Vale

[Ron Andrea]

Absolutely.

One of the central contentions of Michael Kulikowski's Rome's Gothic Wars (Cambridge, 2007) is that Alaric was simultaneously a magister militum charged with defending Rome and a Gothic chieftain--maybe king--when he sacked Rome in 410. As he writes in his Prologue (p. i) "In the early fifth century, the line between Roman regiment and barbarian horde was a fine one."

[Fhyn]

Original question was more directed towards Irish who would of been settled in north of the roman settlements.

But that was more due to only reading things on the northern section where irish were.

I guess more to the point, would of been, would any irish, and yes I know they were not called that then, , been in service to the roman legions.

Thanks for all your guys help so far, has been a very interesting read so far.

[Ti Cl Nero]

I guess more to the point, would of been, would any irish, and yes I know they were not called that then, , been in service to the roman legions.

I think you should really focus, then, on the Atacotti units listed in the Notitia Dignitatum.
Next point is the understanding of Atacotti's identity.
Many authors dealt with this problem, placing Atacotti's origin in Ireland, but also in Northern Britain or Western islands (if you need a list of books dealing with the subject just ask).
Rance, in the article I mentioned earlier (2001), concludes that their origin must be Irish, and that "Atacotti" is a Latin development of the Irish word "aithechthùatha", which, by the way, is not the name of a tribe, but a term menaing something like "subject people", a word generally describing lower status tribes among those inhabiting Ireland - the social and political "loser" groups.
The word describes a status, then, and, as a consequence, a group of tribes ( is not uncommon for Romans to refer to gorups of tribes rather than to single tribes)
Their appearance in Wales in late IV century seems (still following Rance) to be more a pacific Voelkerwanderung rather than a mass migration or an invasion, and Atacotti groups which were settled within the empire may have chosen to be subject to the Romans rather than subject to Irish leading tribes.
Their recruiting, then, may be part of some kind of agreement with Romans, whose details are unknown and must be hypotetically extrapolated by comparing this context with other barbarian settlements inside the empire.
The article by Rance deals with these aspects, and also recruiting is widely dealt with (if you need further details about this article just contact me)

Vale

[Fhyn]

Carlo, would love a list of books on the topic, as well as would like to know how I could get a copy of Rances document on the subject.

Found the first page on JStor, but dont have an account there, so couldnt look at the rest.

Thanks

[Ti Cl Nero]

John,
here is a list of books in which this particular topic (the identity of Atecotti) is dealt with.
Usually, anyway, only a few pages are devoted to it.
You'll find a few more books in the bibliography of the article (where the topic is covered at length), about which I am going to write a PM to you.

Richmond, I.A., "Roman and native in IV century AD and after", in I.A. Richmond (ed.) "Roman and native in North Britain", London, 1958, pp.120-1
Hoffman, D., "Das spaetroemische Bewegungsheer und die Notitia Dignitatum", Dusseldorf 1969-70 Vol II, 56, n.299
Morris, J. , "The age of Arthur", London, 1973, pp.190-1
Salway, P., "Roman Britain", Oxford, 1981, p.365, 370
Thomas, C., "Celtic Britain", London 1986, p.86
Frere, S.S., "Britannia", London, 1987, p.340
Esmonde Cleary, A.S., "The ending of Roman Britain", London, 1989, p.44,51
Potter, T.W. and Johns, C., "Roman Britain", London, 1992, p.193
Salway, P. "The Oxford illustrated history of Roman Britain", Oxford, 1993, p.260
Scharf, R., "Aufruestung und Truppenbenennung unter Stilicho: das Beispiel der Atecotti-Truppen", Tyche 10, 1995, p.161
Elton, H., "Warfare in Roman Europe 350-425", Oxford, 1996, p.20
Foster, S., "Picts, Gaels, Scots", London 1996, p.14
Bradwell P., "Roman forts in Britain", London, 1997, p.106

Vale