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I think the spacing of Steven's pteryges look fine, compared to this statue: http://www.paestum.de/jpg/mann/mann6720_54.jpg
Quote:I don't know how they moved in so many but they found a way, and I wish they would've left a clue cuz I'm having some trouble here...I feel like I'm wearing a grass hula skirt. :wink:
Get a horse. :wink:
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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Quote:I think the spacing of Steven's pteryges look fine, compared to this statue: http://www.paestum.de/jpg/mann/mann6720_54.jpg
Yes, and especially when compared to this carved relief 
~Theo
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To be honest, i think this thread doesnt belong in the re-enactment or reconstruction part of the forum, but in the off-topic or NONSENSE part of the forum.........
Personally i find the leather cuirass ridiculous, and making praetorian cuirassess with appliques out of modern day plasticts is an insult to our Roman ancestors who actually made the stuff from bronze and iron.......
but thats just my 2 As........
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So how is using the modern materials available to you to reproduce a look of something you are extremely passionate about and interested in get twisted about into insulting the very people you are trying to emulate?
Dennis Flynn
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hahahahaha you bite too quickly!
i merely wanted to point out that this has NOTHING to do with reconstruction nor re-enactment!! the topic should have been named: how to make hollywood style leather armour!
The Romans probably would have laughed very very loud seeing those things...
you may be angry about me saying this in such a harsh manner, but whereas the METAL praetorian helmet is a fair attempt at reconstructing something historical, the leather and plastic stuff and the appliques are NOT!!
so either you start hammering, and learn metal skills, or buy deepeeka and try to redo it if you dont want to bother, but please pease do not call these things reconstructions, cuz clearly they are not! and it sure is not re-enactment.
and in my opinion you honour the legacy of our ancestors better by trying to learn and master THEIR skills, than using modern chemical stuff...
M.VIB.M.
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[size=75:j10mxudm]JUST WANT TO COMMENT ON THE SO CALLED PLASTIC ORNAMENTS.
THEY ARE NOT PLASTIC BUT BRASS & BRONCE FIGURES AND ORNAMENTS AND ARE ATTACHED BY EITHER MENTAL COUPLINGS OR GOLD GUILDED THREAD.
THE LEATHER CUIRASS IS MADE LEATHER WITH NO PLASTIC. THE BORDER IS FOLDED BLACK LEATHER AND THE STICHING IS GOLD GUILDED THREAD.
AS FOR WHETHER LEATHER CUIRASS EXISTED OR NOT IT SEEMS TO BE AN UNENDING DEBATE WHICH PROBABLY WILL NEVER BE SOLVED. bUT LOOK AT THE STATUES SHOWN IN PREVIOUS TOPICS. METAL CUIRASS MAY BE WELL USED IN BATTLE BUT WHO CAN SAY WHAT WAS USED IN PARADE OR UNBATTLE AREAS.
HOW MANY TIMES ARE STATUES OR MOMUMENTS USED AS REFERENCE IN LEGIONAIRE & AUXILARY ARMAMENT OR HOW THE GLADIUS AND PUGIO WERE WORN ON THE HIPS OF THE TROOPS.
THIS COULD GO ON AND I AM SURE IT WILL BUT ONE MUST RESPECT THE WORK THE MONEY THAT GOES INTO A ITEM WETHER IT IS STILL YET TO BE APPROVEN.[/size]
STEPHEN MCMAHON
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I certainly appreciate the work that goes into some of these pieces. They are beautiful works of fantasy. My question is why bother? Why not invest the same effort to make something that can claim some historical accuracy?
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"HOW MANY TIMES ARE STATUES OR MOMUMENTS USED AS REFERENCE IN LEGIONAIRE & AUXILARY ARMAMENT OR HOW THE GLADIUS AND PUGIO WERE WORN ON THE HIPS OF THE TROOPS."
If a statement on monuments about Gladii and Pugii and how they were worn is made, there always is a reference to the primary, written sources, as well as several Archaeological findings corrobberating the way we today think Legionaries and Auxilia wore their gladius and pugio.
metal cuirasses WERE used in battle, and the leather idea, however fancy, in my eyes is still a fantasy......
I go by Archaological evidence when reconstructing Plausible types of armor and weapons. the only validity of this discussion where it consists archaeological material and statue comparison in in the Pteruges, wether they were made from linen or leather. (or metal plates sown in whatever material)
Of course if i look at the work done on all the fantasy items in this discussion, i admire the craftsmanship and would gladly make use of your knowledge in working with these materials if i was working in Hollywood.
However, I personally try to go about reconstruction and re-enactment scientifically, and that is the only reason why i state what i state. therefore i also agree with Dan Howard... why bother if you can at least try and do it historically accurate, or more accurate!
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MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS-Sorry, I guess I just read your statement differently than it was meant to be interpereted, hence the downside of internet discussion as the keyboard cannot comprehend the depth of human expression.
Anyways, I just don't see why a leather cuirass seems so far fetched, but I think we're going a bit ahead of ourselves. I think we need to factor in other things like if a leather cuirass is more expensive or time consuming to make than a bronze/other metal one. If it is easier, quicker and more protective to use a metal cuirass than why ever even dream of using leather? If metal ones are more expensive than the leather than maybe I can see why one would be commisioned to make. I should note I have no idea about the costs or effort put into making either one, wether it be now or 2,000 years ago, but I think it's more of a question of wether the need for a leather cuirass is probable to a roman, because if the need isn't there than why even think of making one? Than again what the hell do I know?
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I'm starting to think that when not in battle, high ranking officers would have been sans body armour. Wearing elaborate tunica, belts, swords, helms, etc.
No different than many of the depictions of the rank and file (including the centurionate) in tunica, caligae and balteus. If you're not going into battle, or it's not time to impress too much, why wear the extra weight? I hate drawing modern paralells with ancient...but the vast majority of soldiers only want to wear their gear when it's necessary to do so. Otherwise they're quite happy to strut around in their "nice" uniforms, whatever form that takes, but certainly not including armour (kevlar, seggies, etc.)
There is no evidence literary or otherwise that states Roman officers wore some type of faux armour made of a textile or leather when not going to battle. To me it makes more sense to depict their rank and importance with tunica/toga, cloaks and ornate belts/sandals/boots and helms than wearing burdensome armour. Going in regular clothing is simply more comfortable, and easier all around. So while it's feasible that they did make leather musculata, there isn't much point in my mind.
And the statuary can only be trusted so far. It is art, after all...and idealized renditions of it.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. 
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Quote:I think we need to factor in other things like if a leather cuirass is more expensive or time consuming to make than a bronze/other metal one. If it is easier, quicker and more protective to use a metal cuirass than why ever even dream of using leather? If metal ones are more expensive than the leather than maybe I can see why one would be commisioned to make.
Isn't that akin to a wealthy and successful modern executive choosing to drive a Fiat Punto rather than a Jaguar X-type?
TARBICvS/Jim Bowers
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True Jim, and I can't see a leather cuirass being easier or cheaper than metal. I wish it was though!
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Quote:Tarbicus:1h9g8lkp Wrote:I think the spacing of Steven's pteryges look fine, compared to this statue: http://www.paestum.de/jpg/mann/mann6720_54.jpg
Yes, and especially when compared to this carved relief
~Theo
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MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS said
Quote:metal cuirasses WERE used in battle, and the leather idea, however fancy, in my eyes is still a fantasy......
Ave,
University of Temple Professor Travis Lee Clark (arguably the world’s leading authority on Roman muscle cuirass armor) has found no evidence, literary or otherwise, that Roman officers used metal cuirasses in battle. Please let us know your source for this.
MARCvSVIBIvSMAvRINvS said
Quote:I go by Archaological evidence when reconstructing Plausible types of armor and weapons
There isn’t any archeological evidence for any Roman cuirass (metal, leather, linen, wood or whatever), just as there isn’t any archeological evidence for Roman Shields to have the lightening and thunderbolt design… there is only sculpture. Is the lightening and thunderbolt design also “still a fantasyâ€
Vale!
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well....doesn't seem like we're getting any further than when we started.....let's get out our shovles and see who finds one first
Dennis Flynn
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