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True, but there are other statues where the cuirass bends even more markedly!
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Quote:True, but there are other statues where the cuirass bends even more markedly!
Yup, I've pointed them out in other topics. It all depends on whether you view these pieces as a documentary photograph or a stylised representation for propaganda purposes. With high quality propaganda pieces (which the Prima Porta Augustus and other high status portraits are to a degree at least) I get just as suspicious as I am of modern propaganda.
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Then the possibility is there that they are depicting leather rather than metal cuirass's. After all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. :wink:
There are so many portrayals of soft cuirasses that is would not be to great a leap of faith to suppose that leather 'could' have been used.
But anyway, your cuirass is looking good there matey!!
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Quote:Then the possibility is there that they are depicting leather rather than metal cuirass's. After all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. :wink:
There are so many portrayals of soft cuirasses that is would not be to great a leap of faith to suppose that leather 'could' have been used.
But anyway, your cuirass is looking good there matey!!
Without proper tests being done on a leather cuirass using a heavy sword thrust with a sharp tip and edge, the leather cuirass would have to be so thick there's no way it would bend when left to rest on the ground. I'm really impressed with the way the leather stood up to a kitchen knife, but a sword with the extra mass might be a different thing altogether.
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Well, I reckon any General, such as Caesar, who would get stuck in when the need arose, would have gone for a metal one. But others, perhaps the showey embossed leather?
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Why though? What's so special about leather? Any tom, dick or harry can get some, and any tom dick or harry can paint it, and form it. Would YOU, as a higher ranking officer, want something so common as part of your equipment to show off your splendor? Look at how ornate their pugionnes were...do you really think that a metal cuirass wouldn't be the way to go? How can anyone justify a leather cuirass when we've seen how they work metal, and how important it was to look shiny and intricate?
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Quote:Why though? What's so special about leather?
It's not that there's anything special about it, Matt, it's just that there are representations of bendy cuirasses and they have to be taken into consideration, whether we like it or not. I personally don't like the idea, but then you have to take the rough with the smooth no matter how much you hate the thought and doesn't make any sense at all.
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Leather doesn't BEND Jim, especially ones that have been formed, or painted. You know what happens then, it cracks all to hell. Both the paint, AND the leather. Bye bye to your nice smooth surface. There's no way in hell they used leather...if the "pro leather" people are basing their evidence on the flimsy musculatas shown in art (which all indicate that they are painted), they're going to have to do a LOT better than that.
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Quote:Leather doesn't BEND Jim, especially ones that have been formed, or painted. You know what happens then, it cracks all to hell. Both the paint, AND the leather. Bye bye to your nice smooth surface. There's no way in hell they used leather...if the "pro leather" people are basing their evidence on the flimsy musculatas shown in art (which all indicate that they are painted), they're going to have to do a LOT better than that.
Agreed completely. Show me a piece of leather that is flexible and yet able to withstand a sword thrust. Show me a piece of leather that has been formed and worked into the musculata typology and still flexes like those in the sculptures. Show me some Roman paint that doesn't crack and flake off when its foundation is creased. All three of these need to be demonstrated for the "pro leather" crowd to prove their case.
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Quote:Leather doesn't BEND Jim, especially ones that have been formed....
Metal doesn't BEND Matt, especially ones that have been formed....
I have a musculata that I picked up a while back, made of leather, formed, and it bends.
I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If it's not leather in the representations it sure ain't metal. So what could it be?
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Quote:I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If it's not leather in the representations it sure ain't metal. So what could it be?
Either the sculptor is using artistic licence, or the item being depicted is costume and not armour.
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Quote:Tarbicus:377t4njs Wrote:I'm not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If it's not leather in the representations it sure ain't metal. So what could it be?
Either the sculptor is using artistic licence, or the item being depicted is costume and not armour. Bingo. I'd go for the latter if I had to go for something. Still could be worn by an officer but not as something that would stop an arrow or weapon. For show. Part of the package, not functional. Behind the lines stuff, or even for civic functions.
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What Dan just said is the whole point of this issue and explains it all!. It's art! You can do whatever you want in art. I'm saying that if they actually had leather musculata they'd run into massive problems with it creasing and cracking. Chances are the real deals were metal, but in art, they're showing something totally glorified and therefore probably not as accurate as we'd like it to be.
That musculata that you have...is it painted? When you bend it, do you do it often, and does it create creases where it's bent a lot? You know how leather gets after it's used and abused after a while...what roman officer in his right mind would want a throw away disposable leather cuirass that after a few weeks of use looks like junk because of the creases and cracks in it, even if it isn't painted?
Dress down armour for show? I doubt it! I'd rather be in a fancy tunic myself! That's why they had them, as well as togas and nice cloaks. And even then, two issues arise in my mind. 1) Metal armour is still a LOT better looking, especially when it's buffed. 2) What soldier wants to be in any kind of armour if they have a choice between that and a tunic? Probably none.
If it's supposed to be battle armour, then it had better be hardened at least...in which case it won't bend...lol.
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Actually, here's another question...how does that leather musculata breath Jim? Have you worn it on a hot day for any lenght of time? I'd be interested to know..that could also be a reason not to wear it, if it doesn't breath all that well. No high ranker is going to want to be sweaty and smelly, civillian or military. lol
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Quote:Dress down armour for show? I doubt it! I'd rather be in a fancy tunic myself! That's why they had them, as well as togas and nice cloaks. And even then, two issues arise in my mind. 1) Metal armour is still a LOT better looking, especially when it's buffed. 2) What soldier wants to be in any kind of armour if they have a choice between that and a tunic? Probably none.
Better looking to a 21st Century Canadian maybe. Show me a representation with a bendy scutum, parazonium and floppy helmet as well, and then I'll think it's definitely stylised.
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