Legio XXI prepping for SCA Warfare

[Mac]

I have read a few of the posts, and here is some more advice. When someone tries to hook your shield keep with the Roman center grip use your sword arm to brace the top of the shield. You can use the sword to knock the weapon to the left or right. You can also tilt the shield in the same manner. You can also lean the top of the scutum forward when the person with the weapon pulls forward it will slide off your shield. Don't strap the shields. Leave them the way the Romans had them. Also don't go to your knees and act as a standard shield wall. Stay on you feet when you are attacked by another unit have your rear rank brace the front rank, and push into the oncoming attackers just before they hit you it will break up the charge.
Don't even bother with spear men in your ranks use allies for that. Most people that do Roman in the SCA are thinking of SCA tactics. Use the formations in the battle it will work very well. Our unit started back in 1979 in St Pete Fla doing the 1st Praetorian. Remember don't let them use you as a static shield wall.
Mac

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

OMG... I am completely sucumbing to Pavlov's response now... I totally need to finish the gear for the guys so we can try all this great stuff out!!!

You guys rocketh!

PS - Keep it coming!

[Magnus]

Hey Phillip, let me know if any of your guys wants to finish a 75% complete plastic lorica I started...it's totally anachronistic though...being made of barrel plastic and modern hinges and strapping.

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Magnvs,

Absolutely! I guess it is called "Loaner armour" in the SCA circles??... regardless, it would be most welcome given the current situation of more guys than gear :o .
Please shoot me a PM with details if you would be so kind.

Q. Artorivs / Phillip

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

MAC,

I wonder if you could put some of that footage on Youtube or something...
I would very, very, very much like to see some of what you outlined in action! hock:

Also, I am wondering if anyone has their crack unit roman drill formations etc available to view as well... the written word is one thing, but seeing it is quite another.

Thanks!

Q. Artorivs / Phillip

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Hibernicvs,

I realize that you are getting ready to shut down your RLQM business, but do you by any outside chance have any of those Roman SCA helms left?

If so, how many and how much?

That would be a complete godsend to this fledgleing Legion.

Warmest regards,

Q. Artorivs / Phillip

[Fhyn]

Here is just my thoughts on this, as someone who has fought in the SCA for 18 years, have been Southern Warlord for Atlantia for a few years, before I moved to AEthelmearc, then was part of the war council up here in AEthelmearc for a few years also. Plus run my own ragtag band of sca misfits, most have viking/saxon personas, with me having a late roman personna. Also, just to throw it in here, though it really doesnt add much to this, am also a knight of the society.

I know folks have mentioned the Calontir shield wall and how effective they are. Let me make a point against that, at least for field type battles. For Bridge type scenarios, yes they are correct, and Calontir, usually always holds their bridge, till their allies lose theirs, then they, if they lose, its cause they are being hit on their bridge from both ends. But for field type scenarios, the usual game plan is as follows.

Due to their large shields, and thus making them also harder to manuever fast and react fast. Most battle plans for them, are to just not engage them, kill everyone else, and then kill them last. Which, if you have been to Pennsic, and Calontir is on the losing end of the battle, you will see this take place, almost every single time. The winning side, ignores them, or sends out a tieing up force to just keep them in place, while the rest of the armies kill everyone else, then we back them into a corner and end up wiping them. Oh they go down putting up a great fight, but by that time, they are outnumbered 10-1, and it just takes time to finish it.

Like someone else said, the Romans were known for being able to adapt to the enemies they fought for the longest time. Same applies to SCA. Learn what will and wont work, for SCA combat.

Things to remember, when fighting SCA. 1" above the knee and below, are not legal targets, so why use a shield, thats going to slow you down, get in your way, and make fast manuevers more difficult than what they need to be.

Here is what I use, and try to get most of my guys to use, if they will.

A scutum like shield, strapped like others have mentioned, either 45 or 30 degree angle. I like the 45 degree personally, but have never tried the 30 degree, so I might need to try it, and see if I like it better. For some reason, I think I might, cause it keeps the shield arm more relaxed and not so tight. Have the shields be about 24" wide and about 36" long. This allows for a shield to protect from about neck down to just above the knee or maybe even further. But it also allows you to move quickly when needed. Also still allows you to protect your fellow fighters. Only reson why you might think of making all of them 36" long, is for uniformity, and also to help protect a little better from spears trying to come up from below the shield bottom. Personally, I use a 24x32 scutum style shield for wars, but thats cause my unit moves a lot, and also, cause not all my guys use same types shield. If we were all to use same type, then I would end up going with a 24x36.

Just some tidbits from my experience in SCA combat. Hope they help, and you can glean something from it, to help out your unit. Love seeing all roman and greek units out on the field. Makes the game look so much better. If it wasnt for the fact that I have my own warband, constructed off of the old feoderatti style, so I can at least explain away in my own head, why I have a bunch of vagabonds with me, , I would of probably joined up with a roman unit a long time ago.

[Hibernicus]

Phillip write me direct at

[email protected]

regading SCA Roman helmets

I have 5 left. A local group was going to buy them but is backing out.

$125 ea.. my cost includes S&H

They need final munitions grade buffing.

[Mac]

We once had a unit that was supposed to come in behind us at Sea Raids years ago after we broke through a shield wall. I'm not going to mention the name of the group, but they waited for the unit to reform their line after we punched through. We got beat up so bad at that one because of this unit.
I will say this having a center grip does have it's advantages. When you do have to lift your shields most people think that they are strapped to you, and will try to use a polearm to get behind the shield to take out your arm. When they don't find one it really does confuse them.
There is a lot of good advise given here, but I would play around with the different ideas to see what works for you. Then run with it.
MAc

[Felix Canus]

Things to remember, when fighting SCA. 1" above the knee and below, are not legal targets, so why use a shield, thats going to slow you down, get in your way, and make fast manuevers more difficult than what they need to be.

Excellent points, all. In fact, the only reason I used a 48" scutum was because I'm a rather large guy (in both directions) and it's tough to squat down behind a shorter shield in static defense.

Okay, that, and it doesn't take much inspiration to cut a sheet of plywood into four equal parts. I'm just lazy that way.

[Hibernicus]

We went with a scutum measuring 46-48 x 26-28 as it better represented the era we chose to do. That was out first consideration.

Second the scutum weighed about 20 lbs... based on some reconstructions and coincidentally that's about what one weighs when you use 3 layers of luan et al.

We used segmentatas that were as accurate as we could make them with the knowledge and skills we possessed at the time. We later made them much more accurate, discovering that the hand made fittings did significantly better than the store bought hardware we originally used.

We also made our own helmets, trying to maintain historic proportions. Way too many SCA Roman helmets are made long in order to protect the neck and throat. Our solution was to add extra grille work across the back of the helmet.. a "neck grille" .. especially if someone had a long neck or sloping shoulders.

Extra "armor" was hidden under sleeves and pant legs, neck armor hidden by a focale. Some of us started wearing manica and occrea. We never did solve the problem of disguissing hand armor though we started experimenting with gladiator or pugilist glove variations.

Needless to say I strongly favor a warband "look" that's as historically accurate as possible.

As soon as I find the rattan gfladius I made I'll post a pic. It's somewhere... Made from a split length of rattan, infilled with styrofoam. Hits like Vulcan.

[Fhyn]

Hibernicus is right about a lot of things. Honestly, its all how you want to look, and know the disadvantages of what you will keep and what you will adapt for SCA.

Honestly, after thinking back on this a little, really the only place, where the big scutums, will be a major hindrance, would be the field battle. Cause its wide open, and you will not have the advantage of what the legions had. For example a whole legion of trained troops that knew what each other was doing.

In a lot of ways, SCA combat is more resembling the Gauls and Celts, in that its a run across the field and kill, and hope you have some semblance of order if your lucky.

The really successful groups, tend to run their units along the lines of how a heavy cav unit would of ran.

Every other battle your going to run into, is going to be some what of a different version of a broken front battle, where you will be able to use your shields to their utmost ability, cause your enemys will not be able to totally outflank you and you can use the scenery and obstacles to your advantage.

But will agree, I love seeing roman and greek units, that are well put together, and look the part on the battle field. It makes for a much better presentation and feel for the whole battle.

Biggest piece of advise I can give, if your planning on playing a lot of SCA, plus any other roman reenactments. Is get to know your kingdom war council members, bring them a concise list of what you can bring to the battle field, and what you can do, and work with them, to get you deployed, how you need to be deployed, for your and the kingdoms success.

If you keep to yourselves, and only tend to mingle with your own group. You will end up looking like outsiders, who show up to play with SCA off and on, and you will rarely get used appropriatly, which will frustrate the crap out of ya.

Just some more ramblings from me.

[Hibernicus]

We had some of our most memorable success in the open field... in many instances no one wanted to go up against a unit that could maneuvre... we had depth..2.5 - 3 ranks including spear support, flankers... The ability to turn and face, refuse a flank, wheel into a flank etc etc is disconcerting...

In one battle we marched into and ground up a less organized unit. About the time we were finished were about to be slammed into from behind by a Viking shieldwall (They were all Gauls or Britons some other barbaric horde in our eyes!) that was closing at the doubel quick. When they were about 12 feet from contact we faced about and presented a solid wall of shields. Stopped them cold.

With training these things are very doable.

The larger shield was an asset. Heavy: it was hard for spearmen to push aside; hard for sword and hand weapons to drive through and make contact with head etc, ; hard for soldiers to flail about with it and get themselves killed.. forced men to stand together for mutual protection and success. Our opponents hated it! And it impressed them.

If you're going to fight as Romans in the SCA be Romans, be that heavy infantry unit that marches up to an enemy and starts grinding away at him.

Don't be cowboys, .. that's gladiator fighting, Spartacusland... not Roman legionary infantry. Don't do slamming charges.. walk up to them and grind them up.

One of our favorite ways to close to contact especially on a bridge or in a castle gate was to advance at the half step to a cadence.. to a shield beat or voiced count.. ...every now and then to a very slow advance.... take a step pause, take a step pause.... once we did an advance.. three quick steps followed by shield pounding.. three more steps.... etc. Each step was accompanied by a shield beat. Then just out of pike range do the war cry.. and if you really want to mess them up pull back and repeat.

Your drills should be in full armor all the time... hats on.

March as a warm up. March some more. It teaches you to be a cohesive unit. Learn to wheel and refuse a flank. Practice under fire.. get some friends to pike at you while you maneuvre.

Shark bait drills... have your shieldmen stand ground while others pike them.. call shots don't go down.. stop review, repeat.

When at wars. .march onto the field at least 2 abreast.. 3's more impressive... and more importantly MARCH OFF.. and do so singing!

No one leaves the battlefield except for injuries or to repair armor. Even if a soldier is exhausted he stays until the scenarios are over and marches back with the unit.

No one marchers to the battles until everyone is kitted up and ready... no stragglers. Together, always together.

No one goes to the showers alone. Go as a unit.

When two or more of you are together heading off to Merchant's Row, or out camp hoping.... march! Walk in step.

At one war we marched out late, singing, of course. Fortunately the scenarios hadn't started. Turns out there was some "problem" with kings and marshals (dee dee dee)... since we had time to kill we did warm up exercises and then jumping jacks and push ups.. in armor! ....and counting cadence. No one wanted to fight us all weekend! Imagine that!

And don't get all hung up on special titles and ranks within your unit. Earn rank. Reward excellence.

No one in your unit while on the field takes commands from any one but you, no matter what sort of pointy hat they happen to be wearing. If your troops are commanded in Latin they'll ignore English commands anyway. Have them be polite of course and refer anyone to you.

And YES, cooperate with whatever authority your Kindgom has for war fighting. Communicate.

Don't do things you haven't trained for. It won't work and you'll lose respect. Know your units strengths and weaknesses. Some commanders seeing large shields might think you're good at column charges. If not, say so, respectfully decline, explain your strengths.

That'll do for now









'

[Fhyn]

Hibernicus, if you have any pics of your guys unit at any of the SCA wars you have all been at on the field, would love to see them.

I agree with what your saying in principle. Cause yeah, its true, trying to take out a well disiplined unit, specially one that is using roman tactics, is suicide, unless you severly outnumber them.

I still see the problem though I described earlier, at least on the field battle scenarios. If I was commanding the other side, I would ignore your guys, or send a token force, just to harrass ya, till hopefully I could bring much superior numbers at ya to take you out.

Granted, you should put a heavy toll on my units before you all go down, and that in and of itself, is something to be proud of. But still in the end, if I am on the winning side, I should end up winning.

Unless of course, the whole battle was hard fought, and what I have left to bring against your unit, isnt going to be enough to win it. Then I am going to be in a world of hurt, and most likely going to lose, breaking my back, trying to dig you out and take you guys out.

Biggest problem I see with a roman unit, isnt the roman unit in itself. Its the allies that are with you, that doesnt use the strengths of what you bring, and all run around like chickens with their heads cut off. Like a bunch of wild celts.

Granted, a secret dream of mine, is to see all the reenactment legions, who also play SCA, show up to a Pennsic, and march on and off the field together, and also fight alongside each other as legions. Would love to look across the field and see that, and see how impressive it would look.

Bring big enough numbers, where units can not ignore you, and watch them crumble.

[Hibernicus]

Open Field

Ignore a large unit? Sure. Take your opponent apart if you have that opportunity.

We fought with a Brigade of about 150 in 5 Companies, (plus some small skirmish squads). All from one Barony: Barony of Calafia (San Diego)

The current version of my old warband is here: http://www.ninthlegion.org/

Not the same since I moved on.

Another favorite story from back in the day:

We were drilling at a public park, a fellow from NM (Outlands) approaches (he's visiting friends in S Diego), states he fought us at an Estrella War a couple of years prior.. their best battle of that entire war! he says. A battle of legends, he says!!

Seems his warband had been pestering their comamnding Duke to let them fight the Romans. No, he says. We have our assignments. They plead more to no avail. So now its Sunday, last battle of the day, last battle of the war. The plead and he says OK.

The Duke takes his men, sets out across the battlefield. By the time his unit arrived we had already engaged the enemy and a good portion of our brigade was out or had been pulled off to support other units.

We had lost 4 of 21 by that point.

He goes on to say how exciting and fun and brutal and physical the engagement with us Romans was. Best fight of the entire war he says! Bodies piling up! We broke one of your shields! (They did!) You gusy were tough to kill, an honorabel fight, clean, hard and brutal

BUT!.. we wiped you guys out he says! But all we had left was 3 guys. But man-o-man what a fight!! We've been telling stories about that fight around our camp fires for nearly two years!

Wow says I, how many were you? He proudly answers "there were 45 of us!"

I respond : we had 17 left by the time you engaged us... and that shieldwall you had so much trouble breaking? Six of the nine guys were rookies.. it was their first War.

They traded 42 to get 17..