Legio XXI prepping for SCA Warfare

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

Hello,

I am in the process of putting together a multi-purpose Roman group.

1 - A re-enactment group focused around Legio XXI Rapax
2 - Provide support to Keltica as Legio X
3 - Work as an SCA warband

1 - 2 I have a decent handle on and am making good progress.
3 however I am having some difficulty with.

I know that I will have to change the Gladius technique, however the pila will stay essentially the same. Our Ballista is being modified so it meets their regs. The moot point is the Scutum. Nobody seems to know how to wield one in my SCA environment. Rather than recreate the wheel, I turn to you.

My martial arts training would suggest that rather than moving the shield, you would move yourself behind it for conservation of energy. Being a center-grip design, how would you protect yourself from over the top head shots and whatnot?

Any and all advice is requested and extremely welcome.

The SCA on the Atlantic has never seen the likes of this before, so besides the Latin drill and the overall smartness in appearance, I would like to back this up with a cohesive warband! So this is obviously aside from a shieldwall which I already can deploy. I am leaning more towards individual combat in this request as opposed to melee tactics and training. (That will be the next post :lol: )

So Legionairres, how do you use your scutum 1 on 1????
What say you???

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

I am no expert, but have read a few things and can say how our group uses them in drill.

Punching out with the boss, then stabbing with the Gladius.

the testudo

The orbis

Anti-Calvary formations!

I also think, personally mind you, that a lot can be said for putting your shoulder into it and ramming your opponent! roll:

Being a central grip, this facilitates moving the scutum up to block an overhead attack from your opponent.

Probably not much help, but I am sure more experienced people here will soon give you some help!! 8)

[Magnus]

Sean (Hibernicus) also does a lot of SCA fighting a la roman style out in California. Hopefully he will post here and shed some light on the techniques and tactics they use.

On a side note, how is the Keltica camp coming along? The site director (I forget his name) emailed me when the place first opened up, but I haven't had a chance to make it out there yet. Nice to see a legion springing up there too.

[Hibernicus]

The horizontal does not work well in an SCA environment without extensive training and discipline.

- the head in SCA combat is too vulnerable
- Roman used horizontal, vertical and side strapped systems at different times and for different reasons, usually based on the type of fighting the soldier did.
- the horizontal grip on a scutum weighing 15- 20 lbs is difficult.
- a vertical grip the same same is easy when you build the muscle and skill
- many groups out here using a scutum use a short light weight scutum and go with a vertical grip, fight very aggressive and often more like squads of gladiators rather than as soldiers
- others with scutums 46-48 inches tall use side strapping

If you choose to use the horizontal grip you'll be a heavy infantry unit that does not swarm an enemy, instead you'll advance at a smart pace, never run in order to penetrate with force, close to contact and grind away at him.

You'll be brilliant in a static defense such as castle, or bridge.

Using the horizontal grip will require extensive training to protect the head
and require the soldiers stand well together and use short weapons. A soldier who is hard to kill from a distance will draw fighters into close contact.

I usualy do not like shieldmen to duck to avoid a head shot but with a horizontal grip ducking works, also use the sword and baskethilt to "cover defend" the head and back against wraps.

You will need a rank of spearmen. Use 7'and 9' spears in combination to attack those who close to contact. Add in a few archers! Shieldmen thrust low causing the enemy to lower his shield or die and you do most of your spear killing at oblique angles.

Also, teach your men to hook shields with the pommels of their swords. This should be with shield/sear teams, soldiers who work together all the time whenever possible.

Shieldmen should be taught to know the location of an opponent by feel against his scutum and by looking down at feet.

Teach them blind thrust techiniques to the side of the face, head and torso of opponents who are pressing their scutum. You do not always have to see the opponent to know where he is

Do not be afraid to go to your knees as a front line shield wall.. an excellent way to defeat penetrating charges. Doing it just before teh enemy makes contact wil utterly defeat his attempt to penetrate. Your front rank might get buried under the dad, but when Marshal calls "dead off" your front rank wil still be alive!

I like to arm ,my scutamanii with heavy swords.. some 2" rattan if you can find it is excellent for this. The extra mass aids low line thrusts. Short chops to limbs , head and face do not require as much force.

Slashing attacks by scutamanii have to be done with care.. too often nmen will open their shield defense to thrust exposing themselves to spear shots. A good spearman wil quickly see a shieldman who does this. Slashing and chopping should only be done through the narrow gaps between scutums. Overhead wraps can work when you are pressed by other shields but they often get in the way of spearwork.

Let an individual enemy penetrate the shieldwall. There is nothing more disconcerting for an enemy force to see their large barbarian "shieldbreaker" berserker guy slam between two shields and then disappear under a barrage of weapons behind a solid coheseive shield wall. The targeted shieldman should sidestep just before "shieldbreaker" makes contact.

Pilum Don't bother.. unless you find yourself frequently in static situations or in reserve. The front rank should not have them. A 7' thrust and throw rattan spear is awesome by the way. On occasion, we used pilum to destroy enemy charges by tossing at the front ranks. A bridge covered with tangled rattan spears, like some sort of giant pick up sticks game, cause men to trip and fall.

I sort of rambled here... be very glad to answer other Q's

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

All sound interesting!

[Felix Canus]

Excellent points, and I'll humbly attempt to add to them with some basics that you probably already know (but non-Scadians might not).

Ansteorra has a long tradition of combat with big scutums, mostly between 2-3 feet wide and 3.5-4.5 feet high. Almost all of them are side-strap because you can carry the weight in the crook of the elbow where you have greater leverage and use the hand grip for control. The elbow is also the swing-point (I'll get to that).

We often use what is called a "boxer" stance for 1-on-1 combat. Stand slightly crouched, left leg toward the enemy (assuming you're right-handed) with the shield held at an angle. The upper right corner is just above head level and the lower right corner is sticking out just past your knee. Make sure you can feel the tap of the shield on your left knee and keep it close. You should be able to see the enemy just around the right edge. You should present a sloped shield face to the enemy. Keep your weapon's hilt near the side of your head and your right elbow tucked in to protect it.

(BTW, anyone with USMC training will remember this arm position.)

Typically, you will use your left leg as a pivot point and use your right leg to control turning. Pivot the shield right and your body left to defend right, and vice versa to defend left. The corners of the shield are your main defense. Get used to swinging the bottom of the shield like the clapper on a bell by raising and lowering your control hand. Hand down, tail swings left to protect the lack of the legs. Hand goes up, tail swings right. Simple but it takes practice to get used to it.

To defend the upper body, you will fold the right edge toward you, and lean slightly back and to the left, just like a kid peeking through a door (using your left shoulder and knee as the hinges). If you're quick, you will only lose sight of the enemy for a split second, and should be able to see part of his back over the top of your shield. As long as you keep a good stance and you're not close enough to kiss him, your right side will be fairly well protected from common attacks. Avoid punching unless the enemy is right on top of you (or you're feeling spunky).

Yes, this is really going to give your forearms and lower back a workout.

It's true that 80% of all SCA kills go to the head, but this provides the maximum defense while keeping visibility. Your weapon is the last-ditch defensive line, and don't be afraid to put the hilt on top of your head and drop the blade down your back to protect from close-quarters wrapping shots. Fortunately, you don't have to worry about shin-shots, but greaves are still an excellent idea (love the knees, and they'll love you back).

Next post... doing this in a wall.

[Felix Canus]

The short sword is the second best weapon for a shieldman on the wall, right behind the axe. As a shieldman, your primary job is to stay alive and protect the spearmen, not engage in sword duels. The short weapon is also much faster and handier in the tight confines of the line than any larger weapon. Maces are also very nice for this job.

Much of this is standard procedure in the Calontiri Army. You may have heard of them. They're the ones who have never had a shield wall break in any war they've been in. Not one.

When not moving or preparing for a counter-charge, your front rank should be kneeling with shields on the ground and leaning just slightly backwards. Overlap the shield edges slightly. That wonderful short sword should be set with one end on the ground and the other end into the shield for added bracing. Big guys like me often need to keep both knees on the ground, but smaller guys should be able to keep the right leg up for extra strength. And for all that's holy, KEEP YOUR HEAD DOWN!!! You don't need to see anything. That's what spearmen are for.

And when you feel that meteoric impact on your shield when they charge you, turn into a saber-toothed turtle. Push with all you have, stab through the gaps, hook the enemy spears and pin them to the top of your shield, and be an all-around pain in the butt for the enemy.

As a spearman, you are the eyes and the attitude of the unit. Keep up a constant chatter to the shieldmen in front of you. Not shouting, but just keep talking. Keep him informed of what happening around him. When you stop talking, your shieldman know it's because you're either dead or about to be. Rarely throw a shot straight ahead. Concentrate on the obliques and hit at someone who's just been hit by someone else.

Archers have a special job in the wall. Not only should they be trying to kill anybody they see who's in charge or being a general problem, but they are vital to communication. They have a better view of the line than anyone else, and they should keep the line (and commanders) informed of enemy movements, flanking pushes, penetrations, and so on. Shout first, shoot second. Just keep it to simple statements and let the commanders do the commanding.

Flankers should keep a wide variety of arms, mixing polearms and greatswords with florentine shortswords and the occasional medium shieldman. Imagine a band of celtic beresekers with the speed of track stars. Those are the flankers you want. Attitude is half the job. Move aggressively, fight aggressively, and even stand still aggressively. Just being there should threaten the enemy enough to partially dictate his movements. The other half of the job is, well, kill everything that comes within reach. Eat 'em alive!

The best way to train for this is in small groups, say 5 to 10 people on a side. The absolute minimum is two shieldmen and a spearman. Have small teams spar with each other. Practice crossing a variety of terrain while keeping in formation. And try to make the training the same for everyone in the unit. That way, when they finally get on the field at the same time, they will be able to seamlessly merge together into an iron-clad defensive line.

Good luck, and make 'em pay for every inch of ground.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

So I gather the equipment in this is a bit different than standard re-enactment? hock: :lol:
Sounds interesting, but also like more money too!

All the best guys, and hope to see, and read, more about this here!

[QVINTVS ARTORIVS CORVINVS]

This is wonderful... exactly what I was looking for!

Can any of you supply pictures of the various shield mountings.... just them on the shields and them being held so I can see proper alignment.
Also how do you calculate the balance points for mounting?

I am used to heater shield protection for the head etc, but if you could also provide images of what you deem a proper shield positioning... also images of anything else relevant includig stuff on Utube or whatever. A picture speaks a thousand words they say.

I thank you all in advance for any more info you might be able to share.

ps - Keltica Iron Age Village is still coming along nicely... unfortunately we lost some military build support due to some incident going on in the Middle East :wink: Nevertheless, on goes the progress!


Phillip

[Hibernicus]

Well said Felix Canus

As a commander do not arm yourself with a long weapon. This kinda forces you to stay behind your men and command rather than get into the fight. A spear in a commander's hands is way too tempting to use. As soon as you start fighting you lose control of your unit.


SHIELD WALL RULES. there are only three...
#1 Stay Together
#2 Stay Alive
#3 See Rules One and Two


Here's something:

The OODA loop

Observe
Organize
Decide
Act

A "loop" because each item is connected to the other in sequence

Observe the enemy, the situation, the batlefield etc; Organize your troop based on what you've observed; Decide what you want to do and how to do it; Act.. do it! Repeat as often as necessary

Your job as a commander is to interupt your opponent's OODA Loop; to keep him stuck at Observe, Organize or Decide... before he can Act.

[Felix Canus]

So I gather the equipment in this is a bit different than standard re-enactment? hock: :lol:
Sounds interesting, but also like more money too!

Yes, expensive, but not as much as many reenacting requirements. A good set of minimum armor will cost about $200-$300 in most areas, mostly because they don't mind sacrificing some looks and authenticity for functionality.

And for Q. Artorius...

This photo album is from a training session in Northkeep.

http://photos.northkeep.org/thumbnails.php?album=17

Pic #3 - A type of ambidextrous scutum strapping system on the far left. Note that this is requires a nearly vertical arm position (ick!). It's an okay compromise, but is less effective in 1-on-1 fighting and has many problems. It shows him in the middle in photo #22. Pic #43 shows a handle at the bottom of the shield to provide more control when kneeling. I don't advise it because it gets in the way, but to each his own.

Pic #17 - Here's a nearly perfect stance. The gold/red shield is held straight (as needed in close quarters) and a little high (defending against an overhead attack), but his stance is dead on. A better view is the guy he's fighting in black. He's horribly exposed, but you can also make out some of the details of his shield strapping if you zoom in.

Note that, in many of these photos, it shows the shield with the top tilted right and the bottom swung left. That's what happens if your handgrip is set too high and you get tired. Better to mount it lower (at about 30- to 45-degrees above the horizontal) and mount the elbow strap about one-third the shield's width from the left edge. This also gives more coverage to your back. It's also common to angle your handle for a more comfortable grip, like the grip on a pistol.

To test out different mountings, go buy a sheet of cheap peg board and screw the straps and handle on in different places until you find a combination that's comfortable and practical. After carrying it around for an hour, you should still be able to instinctively being it into proper position.

She's also got some really nice photos of 2006's Estrella at...
http://photos.northkeep.org/thumbnails.php?album=15

Also, check the site for "Rome."
http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/index.html

They're active in the SCA, Markland, and Dagorhir. Their galleries might give you some inspiration, like this one...

http://www.romanempire.net/romepage/ima ... Romans.jpg

Hope this helps.

[Gaius Marius Cingetorix]

[url:209qcqio]http://www.ninthlegion.org/[/url]

[Dominvs]

Thanks for the intro, Felix.

Respectfully, Quintus, the Atlantic SCA has seen the like of this. Sounds like you have too, since you like the Shakespeare quote off our front page so much! Rome has been attending SCA's larger melee events in Atlantia, the East Kingdom, and Aethelmark pretty regularly since 2000. We're the biggest shield unit in Atlantia (geographically), and have earned considerable renown. We're an elite unit, and usually held in reserve to deliver the decisive blow. We've been given credit for securing victories for our side in big Pennsic battles. We're all vastly proud of our accomplishments.

Please look us up if you come to Pennsic this year. You can't miss our camp - prime real estate and huge red banner right beside the battlefield. We'll have about 30 Romans on the field. If you guys want to field with us, you'd be very welcome (and honored). If not, that's cool too. It's always a pleasure meeting people who share the same fascination (i.e., obsession! ) with Rome.

Welcome to the fun!

Sincerest regards,
Sean Richey

[Magnus]

Hey Dominvs, can you add your name to your signature please? Forum Rules.

Welcome to RAT!

[TITVS SABATINVS AQVILIVS]

Phillip/Quintus, please could you use another pic for your avatar? There are lot of possibilities instead of copying without permission the pics of the other members...

Your avatar:



The pic of me, you copied...

http://users.libero.it/sabsab/titus/Titus-Vienne1.jpg

Thanks.

Compliments for your group attempt and uale,