Red cloak of Spartans

[hoplite14gr]

I will support Chris on his reservation on cloacks in battle..
I had to negotiate bad terrain in the GI issue "rain-poncho" and though not in tight formation the experience was unpleasant.

Peter "phaulos" transltes as rough or crude not thin.

Kind regards

[Peter Raftos]

Giannis, I don't think we have enough pictorial evidence to know either way. I personally think if the Spartans had used a chlamys at all it would only have been used for something like hunting or travel. I haven't seen any representations of it in Spartan art. During the othismos you probably didn't need that much space but hoplites could fight in more open order. The Nereid Monument does show soldiers wearing the chlamys but we don't have a positive identification of Spartans wearing the chlamys. The only thing which would suggest the use of the chlamys would be images of the very Spartan Dioscuri but I think they are portrayed wearing the cloak for riding http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/gpr/img/fig32.jpg & http://www.culture.gr/2/21/211/21105m/0 ... 05m054.jpg .
The treasury of the Sicyons has a relief of the Dioscuri returning from a cattle raid wearing the chlamys
http://www.odysseyadventures.ca/article ... oscuri.htm .

I would love to see more images of the chlamys in Spartan art. Until then I have doubts about Spartans wearing them at all outside of hunting, riding or perhaps travelling.

[Peter Raftos]

Stefanos, Thanks for the correction. So the triboun was a 'rustic' and perhaps not too finely finished scarlet garment.

[hoplite14gr]

Based on the directives of the "Retra of Lykourgos" we may safely assume that Peter.
Even the Spartan king was distinguished from traverse crest, purple stripe on chiton and shield device.

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Is that sure about the traverse crest,Stefane?it'a a whole new topic, but I have read many oppositions about the transverse crest being a sign of only Spartan kings and generals.

[hoplite14gr]

There are pottery images here in this section of Spartan kings with traverse crest. Please see also the magazine Giannis. Me and Giorgos give visual and literal evidence on that.
The Cleveland statuete can be argued but the Chalkidic psyktra showing Menelaos with a travesre crest cannot.


Kind regards

[Giannis K. Hoplite]

Sure,I don't argue that Spartans were not using the traverse crest,but there are depictions of it in not Spartan depictions,for example in Athena or in shield devises that you identified as non Spartan(I mean that Gorgon being half fish but also with lion legs).So I thought that it was only a fashion of possibly the rich not only in Sparta but in Athens and other cities,too,and not a sign of the kings and generals.
Yes,I remember the vases in the magazine,very interesting!!!And I liked the depiction of the crest with red and black rows!

[hoplite14gr]

Well you saw the Cleveland 75.1 amphora.
We are very thorough on linking the pottery the time the event and the ancient writers to prove it .
The king wears red traverse crest and the poelmarchos red and black.
Both Spartans wear red chiton and have officers traverse crest.


Also more Lakonian red chitons and proof that you can hunt with them: http://www.sikyon.com/Sparta/Art/sparta_peg04.html
Also Herakles (2nd image) with a red chiton-laconian pottery
http://www.sikyon.com/Sparta/Art/sparta_peg06.html
Kind regards

[Peter Raftos]

OK guys it gets worse. (members of the Yahoo group the Phalanx have covered this ground already and can switch off now - from memory the debate was pretty inconclusive.)

The first literary reference to the crimson garment is in Xenephon's Constitution of the Lacedaemonians 11.3 . Guess what no chlamys or himation or triboun - I looked at the Perseus translation in English and then at the Greek - Xenephon says in regard to Lykurgos:

" In the equipment that he devised for the troops in battle he included a red cloak, because he believed this garment to have least resemblance to women's clothing and to be most suitable for war, "

" eis ge mên ton en tois hoplois agôna toiad' emêchanêsato, stolên men echein phoinikida, tautên nomizôn hêkista men gunaikeiai koinônein, polemikôtatên d' einai,"

The Liddel Scott gives us this -

stol-ê , hê, Aeol. spola (q.v.): ( [stellô] ):--

A. 1. equipment, fitting out, stratou A.Supp.764 .
2. armament, Id.Pers.1018 (lyr.).

II. equipment in clothes, raiment, ib.192; schêma Hellados s. S.Ph.224, cf. E.Heracl.130; hippada stolên enestalmenoi Hdt.1.80 ; s. hippikê Ar.Ec.846 ; Skuthikê Hdt.4.78 ; Thrêikia E.Rh.313 ; Mêdikê X.Cyr.8.1.40 ; gunaikeia Ar.Th.851 , cf. 92; toxikê Pl.Lg.833b ; stolên echein ên am boulêtai SIG1003.14 (Priene, ii B.C.): metaph. of birds, s. pterôn Ach.Tat.1.15 .

2. garment, robe, S.OC1357,1597, PCair.Zen.54.32 (pl.), 263.4,8 (iii B.C.), BGU1860.4 (i B.C.), etc.; s. thêros, of the lion's skin which Heracles wore, E.HF465; en s. peripatein in full dress, M.Ant.1.7 (v.l. -liôi ap.Suid.), cf. Ev.Marc.12.38.

3. act of dressing, meta tên s. Orib.Syn.5.21.

III. (stellô IV) check to motion, pressure, tou aeros Epicur.Nat.11.11 , cf. 14.4.
2. reduction, diminution, tôn sitiôn Herod.Med. ap. Aët.5.129.

Now is the stole like the ephaptis which tends to be draped through the arms? Did you notice, stole is the Attic dialectical form of the Aeolic and Doric spola !!! I am getting confused now!

[Peter Raftos]

OK let me take my left foot out of my mouth and place the other one in. I hastily misread the passage. The word used for the garment is phoinikida. This is confirmed by a passage in Aristophanes play Lysistrata line 1140

"Do you forget how your own countryman,
Pericleidas, once came hither suppliant
Before our altars, pale in his purple robes,

eit' ô Lakônes, pros gar humas trepsomai,
ouk isth' hot' elthôn deuro Perikleidas pote
ho Lakôn Athênaiôn hiketês kathezeto
epi toisi bômois ôchros en phoinikidi
stratian prosaitôn;"

So now we have in addition to triboun the word phoinikida. Does anyone know if they are the same. The Liddell Scott says:

phoinik-is , idos, hê,

A. red or purple cloth, Ar.Pl.731,735; used for horses, X.Cyr.8.3.12.
2. red cloak, Ar.Ach.320 (troch.); phoinikid' oxeian panu a red cloak as bright as bright can be, Id.Pax 1173, cf. 1175 (both troch.): esp. the dark-red military cloak of the Lacedaemonians, Id.Lys.1140, X.Lac.11.3, Arist.Fr.542; also worn by Persians, X.Cyr.6.4.1, cf. phoinikistês 11 ; by Macedonians, Plu. Aem.18, etc.; distd. from porphuris, X.Cyr.8.3.3.
3. red curtain or carpet, Aeschin.3.76 (pl.).
4. red flag hung out as the signal for action, Plb.2.66.11, D.S.13.77, etc.; generally, red banner, phoinikidas anaseiein, a form in solemn curses or excommunications, Lys.6.51.
5. ornamental palm-tree, Inscr. Délos314B137 (iii B. C.).

Mmm that useless cloak word again but interesting to note that it is distinguished from purple (porphuris, Xenophon Cyr.8.3.3. ).

[hoplite14gr]

Please for purple and "phoinik-is , idos, hê, " see my previous post on that.
Purple cloth was available in the area from the Bronze age and the Pylians who knew the art came to terms with the Spartans and even had their own mora.

Stole (stoli) is used in modern Greek too and translates as uniform in English.

Sorry Peter spolas is something else but you proved that there is literary evidence on Lakedemonian uniformity with the rest of your post.

So both literal and pictorial evidence match.
I guess the subject can be closed with the conclusion
Lakedemonians had purple and red clothes and had uniformity.

Kind regards

[Incitatus]

On a more contemporary note, when I was in the British Army I was issued a red PT vest for running, sports etc. On enquiring why it was red, the QM said that it wouldn't show up the blood (for boxing events and the infamous Milling)....very reassuring!
Celer will back me up on this!

[hoplite14gr]

Yes Nick old legends die hard...