Notebook Bag

[Martin Moser]

Martin- again, thanks. What are his arguments? Like many others, I tend to carry a drawstring pouch (one found at Vindolanda) on my belt. Are we mistaken?

No, I don't think so. What I tried to say was that he argues against belt bags in the sense of bags like you people nowadays use to carry their cell phones in for example (hope that is a good example?). I have never seen or heard of any find of a bag with belt loops that would be necessary for this kind of attachment to the belt nor do I know of any depiction of such a kind of bag (maybe somebody else knows something, I might always be proved wrong). OTOH we know of drawstring purses and slipping them on the belt seems one natural and acceptable way of carrying those.

As for Baatz's arguments I beg your patience until I get home tonight.

@Tobias - sent you a PM

[Martin Wallgren]

Hehehe ... here in nothern Sweden the belt fitted mobile phone is quite common. Especially among outdoorworking middleage men. I know it´s somewhat OT but anyways it proves that if a need is there or a fashion someone is probally doing it.

[Martin Moser]

Hehehe ... here in nothern Sweden the belt fitted mobile phone is quite common. Especially among outdoorworking middleage men. I know it´s somewhat OT but anyways it proves that if a need is there or a fashion someone is probally doing it.

Yes, that is true - however by that same logic you might also argue for the existance of backpacks in the modern sense in ancient times (and it seems to be generally accepted that those weren't around back then, at least I've never heard about it). But we're heading for the old absence-of-evidence-dilemma here .... :-P P

[Martin Wallgren]

Indeed...

I was just being kind of ironic, I hope! :lol: twisted: :twisted:

[aitor iriarte]

Martin, a little bit OT but, does Schultze's paper deal with Late Roman belts?
Thanks,

Aitor

[Martin Moser]

Martin, a little bit OT but, does Schultze's paper deal with Late Roman belts?

IIRC no, but I'll check again tonight ...

[aitor iriarte]

Thanks, Martin!

Aitor

[Tib. Gabinius]

"Baatz argues strongly - and to me convincingly - against such beltbags. (Note that I don't mean bags or tablets or something else tucked into the sash or belt, but bags/etuis worn in a permanent manner on the belt by the use of belt loops or some such)." Martin- again, thanks. What are his arguments? Like many others, I tend to carry a drawstring pouch (one found at Vindolanda) on my belt. Are we mistaken?

Like Martin already said.
But he constructed a line to the wall paintings of Dura Europos, where some see "beltbags".
He report very logical why this kind of bags still isn't belt worn like many try to think.
I can send you the passage, perhaps you have someone who is able to read and translate german.

[Caballo]

Yes please! I can read German VERY slowly, with the aid of a large dictionary.....sadly, my O (UK exam taken when c 16) level in German never covered useful things like helmet browband, gladius pommel, or cheekguards..... :?

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Yes, that is true - however by that same logic you might also argue for the existance of backpacks in the modern sense in ancient times (and it seems to be generally accepted that those weren't around back then, at least I've never heard about it). But we're heading for the old absence-of-evidence-dilemma here .... :-P P

Martin I do believe this is a Celtic backpack from Hallstaat. I know its not Roman, but it does illustrate that the backpack idea was known.

[Martin Moser]

:lol: I stand corrected (on the backpack thing that is ;-) ) )

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Hey Cabello, bet your German is still better than my French! :lol:

Paul, is the back pack a quiver possibly, or is it open at the back(away from view point)?

[Primvs Pavlvs]

Hey Cabello, bet your German is still better than my French! :lol:

Paul, is the back pack a quiver possibly, or is it open at the back(away from view point)?

Gauis,

This was found in a saltmine in Austria. So I think its safe to say its not a quiver.

:wink: and I have never seen any evidence for back quivers.......so find a pic!

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

:lol: :lol: :lol:
Neither do I, that is why I am asking! 8)

I tak it then this would have been used for the poor slave to haul salt out of the mine..... OK I think I have answered my own question below! :?


So.......IS it open away from our view point? Are the loads secured into it with fastenings, or is it a open toped basket form?

[Martin Moser]

"Baatz argues strongly - and to me convincingly - against such beltbags. (Note that I don't mean bags or tablets or something else tucked into the sash or belt, but bags/etuis worn in a permanent manner on the belt by the use of belt loops or some such)." Martin- again, thanks. What are his arguments?

Baatz' article was in response to Schulze's (see above for references), who tried to show that belt bags were around from the 3rd century onwards at the latest, by reconstructing a belt bag sewn to the belt out of finds from two Germanic warrior graves from the 4th-5th century AD and the depiction of wall painting of the sacrifice by the Tribune Iulius Terentius from Dura-Europos (F. Cumont. Le sacrifice du tribun romainTerentius et les Palmyreniens a Doura. Fondation E. Piot. Monuments et Memoires 26, 1923).
In the graves only 7 resp. 8 metal fittings (those from the belt itsself included) remain, so the reconstruction of the bag itself and its attachment to the belt is speculative.
Baatz remarks that in that wall painting the alleged belt pocket is painted in such a manner that belt crosses it on top rather than under it and argues that by comparison with grave steles like the one posted above by Cesar it rather looks like something tucked under the belt in that same manner.

So, there is no actual find of a leather bag, only a few fittings that may possible have belonged to a bag are the only unrefutable evidence provided by the Schulze for belt bags before the Merowingian time, the rest being rather speculative and reasonably argued against by Baatz IMHO.