Roman wet weather clothing...

[Graham Sumner]

Leather leg wrappings (below the knee) were also used in the British army (IIRC) before WW2. I even own a pair that were bought on ebay and are too small for me!

You also see them worn by WWI pilots for example Manfred von Richthofen. They were also again popular amongst contemporary agricultural laborers. I will try and get more information on the Petasus hat which is in Bolton Museum and Art Gallery, England. I do have a colour photo which shows it is in two slightly different colours which when compared with other surviving hats seems to have been usual.

Graham.

[Mark Headlee]

Graham,

That would be golden if you could find any notes on the felt hat. From the photo in your book I can see many of the details, but since it looks like the hat has been flattened over time, I would be most interested in the following details:

1. Brim measurement
2. How the hats different panels are sews together
3. If it is lined and if it has any type of sweatband

Thanks in advance...

[Caballo]

Leather leg wrappings (below the knee) were also used in the British army (IIRC) before WW2. I even own a pair that were bought on ebay and are too small for me!


You also see them worn by WWI pilots for example Manfred von Richthofen. They were also again popular amongst contemporary agricultural laborers.

And they are still available today....

http://www.paradestore.com/detail.aspx?ID=597

[Matt Lukes]

There was a TV show a few years back that had a group of regular guys being taught to be legionaries for a week- it was in Britain early in the year I believe- late winter nearing spring?- so the weather wasn't particularly nice, and although I don't recall whether or not they wore anything special on their legs or feet (I think it was simply bracae and regular caligae), the one thing that these guys did do, to the surprise of those running things, was to use their felt helmet liners as caps when the helmet wasn't being worn. I recall very specifically there being issues at night with the men getting too cold (they had to bring in proper sleeping bags eventually), but during the day, when they were working, training, etc., they commented on just how warm the armor (segmentata) seemed to keep them.

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

Was that the show where they had a group of British soldiers, and a group of american soldiers, some in hamata, and others in segmentata, Matt?

It was quite a good show, although I only managed to see part of it, due to work schedule.

Regards

[Crispvs]

No. It was the programme which had eight enthusiastic but inexperienced men try and learn what it was like to be Roman soldiers for a week.

It was four or five years ago and was one of a brief slew of series which purported to show what it was like to live in a by-gone age simply by dressing them in the producers' idea of period clothing and putting them in an assumed period setting. These programmes set great store in the opinions expressed by the individuals involved but in most cases these people had been given no prior understanding of the reality of the time they were supposedly portraying. I think that the worst one was the one where a group were supposedly portraying Celts and by far the best was the one where a group of men portrayed world war one infantry and manned trenches. Crucially, in this last one the men had been given contemporary diaries to read and so had some understanding of the mindset of the time. Most of the series however, simply showed people in period clothing expressing modern opinions and confusion and sometimes indignation about what they were doing. I think most of these programmes did little of nothing to educate people.

As I stated, the Romans series was one of these. We had known it was coming out several months in advance and had fervently hoped that either soldiers (who would be suitably fit) or Roman re-enactors (who would have a good understanding of what they were doing) would be used in the programme. Unfortunately, like the other similar series which came out at the same time, it used eight keen but (in my view) unsuitable people to demonstrate Roman soldiers. To help them they had a centurio who IS a re-enactor, but about whom I shall say nothing more in case someone (particularly in St Albans) decides to sue me over what I might say about him, apart from the fact that I do not consider that he knows very much about pugiones; and a historical advisor who was full of ideas and opinions but who would have given better, more informed advice had she been a member of RAT at the time, as she is now.

The eight victims of this debacle were given 'one size fits all' caligae (which fitted no-one and must have caused problems from the start) rather strange tunics which hung unbelted to about mid-thigh and which had splits in the sides and trousers cut short so as to (supposedly) resemble femenalia. I recall them being given cloaks of some sort but I do not recall whether or not these were anything like the real thing. The use of the felt helmet liners as hats was due to the advisor confidently telling them that 'the Romans would have used the linings of their helmets as hats in cold weather' (this should be taken a my own recollection of the words said rather than an exact quote). I do not recall any evidence being cited to back up this rather rash statement. The group were put through their paces at drilling, digging latrines, cooking their own food over open fires (a first experience for some) and going on a route march, with one of the men, rather than a mule, being forced to carry the leather tent for the duration. Not surprisingly, one of the men ended up getting hypothermia and having to go home.
The armour kept them warm (when they were active) because they were not used to it and found its weight burdensome. Thus they kept warm thanks to the extra effort of moving in armour rather than because the armour was warm.

I do not recall any of the men being equipped with undertunics or tunics of the correct dimensions (which would have kept them much warmer), nor of any of them being issued with socks or lower leg coverings, which would also have kept them warmer.

By comparison, in cold weather I (sometimes) wear more than one tunic, socks, leg wrappings and a paenula. I have also slept comfortably in the contaburnium tent on a cold night using my tunic as a sleeping bag and my cloak as a ground sheet in the same manner as in this photo (which was taken of me by persons unknown!).


Crispvs

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

OK Obviously not the same programe then. The one I saw was a few years back too, but they were definatly military people being put through the paces. They stayed in reconstructed barracks up by the wall I believe? and did many different things, although I did not see all the programs in the series. Was quite interesting though, what I did see. Sorry to go off track here.

[Robert Vermaat]

OK Obviously not the same programe then. The one I saw was a few years back too, but they were definatly military people being put through the paces. They stayed in reconstructed barracks up by the wall I believe? and did many different things, although I did not see all the programs in the series. Was quite interesting though, what I did see. Sorry to go off track here.

Maybe you saw the BBC programme 'Roman soldiers to be', where a member of the 'other' Leg. XIIII introduced a bunch of volunteers to the Roman military - on a cold Welsh hillside in October!

I can still see him waiving with his bright red copy of Vegetius...

[Crispvs]

That sounds like the programme I was thinking of. :evil: :evil: :evil:

Crispvs

[naturtuche]

John wrote:

Wool that has not been dyed with modern dyes or processed with modern techniques retains its lanolin, and, is water repellant.

Do you have experiences with Lanolin, to make fabrics dyed with natural dyes more water proofed? We have a very thick and tight woven woolen twill (500gr per m²), perfect for a warm clothing, however I noticed that the dyed fabric is not so resistant against water. I bought lanolin and I still looking for the best method to bring back the lanolin to the wool.

Regards from
Naturtuche

[Gaius_Calvus]

Hi Hannelore,

Peronis recommends the following product to restore lanolin to wool. It is called GP750 and is marketed by a firm in Australia:

Lanotec Australia Pty Ltd
www.lanotec.com.au

I have tried to order it, but it is not yet available in the USA -- perhaps it is in Europe?

At any rate, if you cannot order it directly from a European distributor, you could send a PM to Peronisto find out how he acquired it?

Good luck,

Edge

[RUBICON]

Would it not also have been developed to use a leather cloak, much in the same light as a scutum cover for a legionary to keep sudden rainstorms off?

Much in the same way as a dizabone? During the warmer months, wearing wool would have been too hot?

Oilskins are so popular here in Australia, cool ( to an extent) yet keep you very dry during massive downpours

As for leather wrappings, or gaiters even, we use them during riding instead of destroying our good leather boots, these wrapped around your lower leg keep you very warm during winter!

[marsvigilia]

REPOSTED: Lanolin Cloak Procedure

Some time ago, I set out to saturate a wool cloak with lanolin, the greasy waxy substance that comes from wool. Apparently it helps keep sheep and at one time Romans dry. Dipping the fabric in melted lanolin was excessively greasy, rubbing lanolin in resulted in inconsistent coverage and did not saturate the fabric but seemed to stay on top. I decided to dissolve or emulsify the lanolin in a solvent then soak the cloak and let dry hopefully leaving only lanolin behind. I found that many solvents did not dissolve the lanolin, while many others leave a strong odor that will outlive my grandchildren yet unborn. I also wanted to avoid the linseed human torch phenomenon. I think I found a workable though a bit expensive solution.

According to my research Merino sheep are a fairly greasy sheep and used to be even greasier before breeders decided to breed that out. Merino wool has about 40% lanolin by weight when just sheared. Therefore, this is what I aimed for in my final product.

The following is what I did. I make no representation that it is the best way or even that it is safe. I think it is, but I could be wrong. I discussed my project with both the solvent manufacturer and the poison control office. Neither raised any warning flags regarding toxicity as long as concentration of vapors are avoided, i.e. do it outside.

Materials:
1 pure wool cloak weighing 2 pound 12 ounces
5 gallon bucket with sealing lid
2 gallon bucket with sealing lid
1 gallon Bestine solvent and thinner for rubber cement ($32) (N-Heptane) by Union Rubber, Trenton NJ (WARNING: vapors flammable) usually available in fine art supply stores, but not craft stores.
2 pounds lanolin anhydrous ($24 a pound from a pharmacy special order by the pound, $10 a pound on eBay for 10 pounds, note: don’t get the hydrous it just has water added)
1 cheap $3 plastic sheet to spread out cloak on for drying.
1 day without rain.

I mixed 2 pounds of lanolin with the 1 gallon of Bestine, in the 2 gallon bucket and sealed tightly (must be air tight) and allowed to form a solution over 2 days, swirling and shaking occasionally with lid remaining tightly closed. Most of the lanolin emulsified into a strange swirling yellow soup. The undissolved or unemulsified lanolin remained at the bottom. I then poured the solution into the large 5-gallon bucket leaving the undissolved lanolin behind. I next placed the cloak into the large bucket and attempted to assure that it was evenly soaked through. 1 gallon was just barely enough for my relatively light somewhat open weave cloak. I spread the plastic sheet on the ground and spread the cloak over it. Do not attempt to wring cloak out. Remember that wet stuff is the carrier of the lanolin. If it hadn’t rained, I think the Bestine would have completely evaporated within 3-4 hours. Learn from my mistake, check the weather report first.

The final result was a cloak that was moderately but not excessively greasy. The cloak went from 2.75 pounds to 4.54 pounds, a gain of 1.79 pounds. Lanolin represents 40% of final weight, which was my goal. By repeating the process, I believe I could increase lanolin to any level required, but I think this is enough for now.. The cloak smells of nothing but lanolin. An unscientific flame test showed some increase in flammability but not nearly as much as I understand you get with some other solvents. I think the increase in flammability is entirely attributable to the wool being saturated with lanolin.

How waterproof is it? That I really don’t know yet. I suspect not very waterproof by modern standards. I started with an open weave wool which probably isn't the first choice for a rain slicker. Also the Romans never had the benefit of plastic/rubber raincoats so their standards were probably lower.

Since my initial post I did wear this out in a wet snow storm while shoveling my driveway. I was kept warm however the tails of the cloak became strangely stiff in the cold. Not surprising if you think about it which I hadn't. I also wore it to Lupercalia. I received several comments about smelling funny. Hopefully it was the cloak they were talking about. Oh, lanolin has done a great job protecting my segmentata from rust. Long live sheep grease!

I have not tried the Nappy wash solution. I would be concerned that it might get rather expensive for the amount involved. Depending on how greasy a cloak you want, it requires a lot of lanolin be deposited in the fabric. In my case almost 2 pounds of lanolin. about 810 grams. That would be an enormous amount of something designed for washing nappies, plus dry time might be a problem. I didn't even consider putting this cloak in my wife's dryer. I value my life.

You could probably contact the manufacturer and find out how much lanolin by weight is in the product. I've found that many companies are more willing to share that kind of information than you would suspect. The trick is sometimes getting past the first line customer service agent. Just be a good Roman. Be persistent and eventually you will overcome their defenses.

[naturtuche]

Hi Tony,
thanks for your illustrative report of your experiment with lanolin. It sounds good, much better than the way I heard some times ago. They told me to add liquid soap to water and lanolin and then spray the imulified lanolin solution on the fabric and let it dry. I think this method is not effectiv, since you do not get rid of the soap.
Did you tried to spray your imulified lanolin on the fabric?

regards from Hannelore

[marsvigilia]

I did not try spraying. It might work but then again there are several problems as I see it.

If you are trying to get the level of lanolin up to where it would be naturally in raw wool, that is a lot of lanolin. In my case almost 2 pounds to reach the 40% lanolin by weight found in raw merino wool. I ended up using a gallon of Bestine (rubber cement thinner and solvent, heptane) that would be an awful lot of product to try and spray evenly. I think you would get batter saturation with soaking. My cloak took up the entire gallon. There are pre-mixed products out there but I think many of these have soap and the amount of lanolin present I do not think would be sufficient.

Saturation and even coverage would also be concerns. It might be difficult to get the kind of even coverage and saturation found in natural product.

While I think Bestine is relatively safe, it is flammable. I would be very worried about putting that much product in the air that quickly. Even outside it might make a rather potent fuel air mix bomb. Soaking and allowing to dry of course puts it in the air but much more slowly, allowing the fumes to dissipate.

Same as above but worried about inhalation. I doubt most masks would help do to the non-particulate nature of the vapors. Again I think it is safe, but with plenty of fresh air and not too much at a time. It's bad enough being a Roman, I hardly need to be a glue head as well.

The big advantage of Bestine is that (to the best of my knowledge) it leaves nothing behind to cause unpleasant odors, increase flamability, or start sudsing in a rain storm. And it evaporates very quickly.